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Crunch bar in my gearbox


drivewaymyway

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Hiya all...

 

  I have 3 MK1 Berlingo 1.9D and all have the BE4R cogbox..  I recon Cadburys have started selling 75/80 BV or Gear8 Oil... Last year I changed the Clutch in two Vans and the gearbox has been crunching and grinding ever since, The gearbox has gone from a lovely smooth change to what it is now in less than 100 miles, the oil I have got from Citroen and is the recommended Total 75w80 ATI4+.. The very mention that a problem has occurred on the Citroen forums is just like opening the floodgates on abuse so getting a straight answer or any advice other than 'The clutch is fucked'.. Ever time I go out in the Camper the gear change is worse, what can I do to stop the damage getting worse ?

 

There must be a way of getting the smooth gear change back or an oil that isn't going to fuck my gearbox !!?? 

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What make of clutch did you use?  Tame Mechanic will only use Valeo now on PSA stuff, after unfortunate experiences with LUK (mine!) and Transmech.

I used LUK.. What was the bad experience ?

 

Is the clutch clearing Ok?

Clutch seems to clear OK, when I put my foot on the pedal and move gearstick slowly I can feel the gearbox 'working' and it seems as if the spinning stops also the bite point is quite high..

 

Sorry, but the clutch is fucked.

This is first response I was expecting, good to know you're not letting me down...

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Redline MTL. Not cheap but good stuff.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/manual-trans-lube-quart-GL-4/dp/B000CPCBEG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1529874330&sr=8-1&keywords=redline+mtl+70w%2F80

 

And if you are old fashioned like me, one of these too

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MOLYSLIP-GEARBOX-PROTECTION-REDUCES-RUMBLE/dp/B071YZ6ZMN/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1529874393&sr=1-2&keywords=Molyslip+gear

 

The redline at Amazon does seem a little pricey, I used it in mine and paid (I think) £15 a quart from Opie Oils. That was a couple of years ago mind. Also bear in mind that being American it comes in quarts, not litres so two bottles equates to 1.9 litres which may leave you a tad light for a two litre capacity box.

 

Here are some US reviews.....I used it in a Mini Cooper and it improved the shift nicely. It is now in my daily Seat Leon (VW 020 Box) and no problems at all, shift is nice and crisp regardless of the weather.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Line-Transmission-Transaxle-Lubricant/product-reviews/B000CPCBEG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_hist_5?filterByStar=five_star&pageNumber=1

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Hiya all...

 

Blah blah, Berlingo 1.9D blah, blah..  Blah, blah, blah... Blah I changed the Clutch blah and the gearbox has been crunching and grinding ever since, The blah, blah lovely smooth change to what it is now in less than 100 miles, blah, blah, blah.. Blah, blah, blah or any advice other than 'The clutch is fucked'.. Ever time blah, blah, the gear change is worse, what can I do to stop the damage getting worse ?

 

There must be a way of getting the smooth gear change back blah, blah, blah !!??

The clutch is fucked!

 

Why have you got your fingers in your ears?

 

Ok, I'll separate this into two parts

 

1) The clutch assembly. If the assembly is fucked, then the engine motion won't be separated from the gearbox, it'll be dragging and then the gear change goes from bad to worse.

2) The operation mechanism. If the cable / hydraulics whatever actuation method is used give insufficient movement, then it'll be dragging and then the gear change goes from bad to worse.

 

First rule of fault diagnosis - don't overlook the obvious - therefore, check by actual measuring the movement.

Second rule of fault diagnoses - don't overlook the fact that the new part may be faulty and don't leave it out of the fault diagnoses process.

 

You've told us the gear change is shit and the biting point high. This points to a fucked clutch. I'm baffled as to why you are thinking it all down to the oil. Why? I get the impression just because it was a lot of work that you've closed your mind off to it being the problem because it was new.

 

Let me know when you've sorted this "fucked clutch" out.

 

If oil was really a problem, you'd be showing me a photo of a bowl of oil drained from the gearbox with a mountain of swarf in it.

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There must be a way of getting the smooth gear change back or an oil that isn't going to fuck my gearbox !!??

Yes. Put a clutch in it that isn't suffering from clutch spin.

 

These gearboxes are as tough as old boots. I've run BE1, BE3 and whatever it is in our Berlingo DW10 (looks almost identical to a BE3/5) for many many years now and they are almost unbreakable. I've accidently run them with no oil in for thousands of miles, and they still run smoothly. On knackered old shitters of cars I've lobbed engine oil, ATF and various other unknown fluids in to these gearboxes and completely failed to make the slightest difference to the gearchange. Infact, on 15w-40 engine oil, the change was even smoother (and IIRC, very early BE1/5 boxes were specified to use engine oil)

 

You are describing classic symptoms of clutch spin. The issue could be:

Friction material sticking to the flywheel/cover

Failing crankshaft nose bearing (you did check it, didn't you?)

Bolloxed clutch cover diaphram spring not releasing fully

Stiff/siezing friction plate/input shaft splines preventing the plate from moving

 

etc.etc.etc.

 

There's nothing wrong with your gearbox. There's a lot wrong with your clutch.

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The clutch is fucked!

 

Why have you got your fingers in your ears?

 

Ok, I'll separate this into two parts

 

1) The clutch assembly. If the assembly is fucked, then the engine motion won't be separated from the gearbox, it'll be dragging and then the gear change goes from bad to worse.

2) The operation mechanism. If the cable / hydraulics whatever actuation method is used give insufficient movement, then it'll be dragging and then the gear change goes from bad to worse.

 

First rule of fault diagnosis - don't overlook the obvious - therefore, check by actual measuring the movement.

Second rule of fault diagnoses - don't overlook the fact that the new part may be faulty and don't leave it out of the fault diagnoses process.

 

You've told us the gear change is shit and the biting point high. This points to a fucked clutch. I'm baffled as to why you are thinking it all down to the oil. Why? I get the impression just because it was a lot of work that you've closed your mind off to it being the problem because it was new.

 

Let me know when you've sorted this "fucked clutch" out.

 

If oil was really a problem, you'd be showing me a photo of a bowl of oil drained from the gearbox with a mountain of swarf in it.

I don't have my fingers in my ears, I have fitted 4 clutches on my own and on the driveway, 3x Luk and 1x QnH, 6x cables at £105 each, each clutch has had new bearings, levers, slide bush all genuine, these cars are costing a fkin fortune and the gearchange is still shit.. When I bought each of these cars I changes all the fluids and filters and the gear change is shit within 100 miles which is why I changed the clutches in the first place and the gear change is still shit. All the gearboxes have had genuine parts aswell as Total Gear8.. The oil is near £10 a litre and I have had to buy 16 litres over the last 4 years and yes the oil comes out with golden flecks in it.. I've always changed the fluids and filters in all the cars I have and it's only Citroens that shit the gearbox.. The clutches aren't fucked, they are new.. If you know everything why don't you come and try it for yourself, while you're at it you can whip out the gearboxes and prove to me the clutches are FUCKED as you seem to be very keen to point out.. Would it not be better to suggest some help in your posts instead of ranting ?? What clutch brand do you fit ? what oil do you use ? What method of fitting do you adopt ?

 You're right it's a fucking long and dirty job especially without a ramp so obviously I don't want to keep repeating it which is why I'm asking for help, not abuse you cock !!

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I’d put a new cable with auto adjuster on if it was mine ( assuming it’s not hyd)

They do have auto adjusters on and they are crap aswell, resetting is a pain and getting the pedal right is hit and miss, the cables are all different, I can take a cable off and fit another and the setting will be totally different they also don't last long before the pedal is rough.. I want a manually adjustable cable but there isn't a replacement sadly..

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Holá, Cock here!

 

don't overlook the fact that the new part may be faulty and don't leave it out of the fault diagnoses process.

The clutches aren't fucked, they are new..

See above. You're assuming they aren't fucked because they are new. Never assume.

 

Would it not be better to suggest some help in your posts instead of ranting ??

I'll repeat this bit of my last post:

 

Ok, I'll separate this into two parts

 

1) The clutch assembly. If the assembly is fucked, then the engine motion won't be separated from the gearbox, it'll be dragging and then the gear change goes from bad to worse.

2) The operation mechanism. If the cable / hydraulics whatever actuation method is used give insufficient movement, then it'll be dragging and then the gear change goes from bad to worse.

 

First rule of fault diagnosis - don't overlook the obvious - therefore, check by actual measuring the movement.

Second rule of fault diagnoses - don't overlook the fact that the new part may be faulty and don't leave it out of the fault diagnoses process.

 

You've told us the gear change is shit and the biting point high.

[which is why I'm asking for help, not abuse you cock !!

Yes, and you've been getting help you obviously don't want to hear, despite suggests of clutch and/or cable and that LuK clutches can be shit.

 

Yes. Put a clutch in it that isn't suffering from clutch spin.

 

There's nothing wrong with your gearbox. There's a lot wrong with your clutch.

See, it's not just me. Feel free to ignore me. On that car I'd fit a Valeo btw.

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I don't have my fingers in my ears,

You do. You are exhibiting classic fingers-in-ears responses, becoming abusive when you don't get the answer you want.

 

Lets get some information here. How mechanically competent are you? How many clutches on OTHER vehicles have you changed in the past? How well did these go? What other diagnostic checks have you made on why you have an issue? For instance:

 

If you double-declutch (as opposed to Double-D clutching.. something very different) when you change gear, and generally rev-match the engine to the roadspeed, does the gearchange drop in more easily? Can you feel the synchromesh fighting the spinning input shaft? Once it's in a given gear, is the drive smooth? Do you get bearing whine? Does it drop in and out of gear much more easily with the engine off? If you put the car in gear with the clutch down, does it still roll easily?

 

All of this is needed to make an initial assessment of whether the clutch is actually doing what it should do. You could even go further and jack a wheel off the gound, put it in gear with the clutch down and see if you can turn the wheel by hand, thereby confirming whether you have full dis-engagement of the clutch or not.

 

Given that you have fitted four clutches, and you have four vehicles that are now exhibiting classic signs of clutch spin, I suspect you may need to look in the mirror to identify the common issue here.

 

It's also worth mentioning that if this does turn out to be an oils issue (not impossible I guess.. excess drag on the anti-selector bearings could cause the symptoms you describe.. maybe) then rather than worry about what you've put in, you should consider what was in there before. More issues are caused by mixing incompatible oils than are ever caused by using the incorrect specification oil. The whole MTF94 VS ATF in a Land-Rover R380 gearbox is testament to that.

 

 

tl:dr Stop ranting and start diagnosing.

 

 

Edit. I missed this on my first read:

when I put my foot on the pedal and move gearstick slowly I can feel the gearbox 'working' and it seems as if the spinning stops

That is *classic* clutch spin. You should not be able to feel the synchromesh working to slow down/stop the input shaft just from idle. When you dip the clutch the input shaft should be stationary within a few seconds, simply due to the viscosity of the oil in the gearbox. Even if you start to move the gearstick before it's stopped turning, the syncro ring should stop it nearly instantly with no obvious feel at all. Clearly the input shaft is still being rotated by the engine, and the syncromesh is having to work quite hard to overcome the torque that is keeping it turning. As proven by this:

yes the oil comes out with golden flecks in it.

Which is brass from the synchromesh breaking up due to being utterly overloaded.

 

And what's the only* way of transmitting torque from the engine to the gearbox input shaft? All together now....

 

 

*Ok, and the input shaft nose bearing. But I covered that above.

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Firstly, why was the clutch changed in the first place? 

 

Does it crunch when you go to select reverse? (without deliberately waiting)

 

Could the cables or gear change mechanism have been damaged or misaligned when doing the clutch? 

 

Clutch drag (seems others call spin) is when the centre plate isn't fully released. If that happens, gear change is notchy but crunches in reverse. The same thing can happen if there is insufficient movement on the clutch release arm/fork. 

 

Three issues normally affect clutches, clutch slip, drag or judder. Judder and Slip usually require new clutch, drag can be the operating mechanism as well as the clutch itself not working as it should. 

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VERY stiff operation, despite attempts at adjustment; hard to get reverse, and third to second can be a bit of a lottery.  Beginning to fail after 67000 miles and will be replaced soon with Valeo kit.

 

Interesting. I'm considering a new clutch on the Scenic 1 2.0 later this year and have always used LUK clutches without problem.  I read this earlier on here where someone said only valeo for French stuff, might have been you, and looked up valeo clutches as a result. Those are the only 2 makes I would consider, with so much work to do, saving some 30 odd quid on a cheapy is never worth it. The CSC  (concentric slave cylinder) pushes the price of modern clutches up quite a bit but especially worth using good brands on those.  

 

Has your tame chap had many problems with LUK on French cars then? 

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never had a bad one .

Of the dozen or so clutches I have changed, I've never had an issue either, and for some of the early ones I did in my teens, I hadn't a clue what I was doing, and they have almost all been the cheapest possible crap available at the time.

 

Hence my barely-veiled comment above that the only common factor with all these "failed" clutches is the fitter. No way is someone so unlucky they get 4 shit clutches straight out of the box. There *must* be something wrong with the fitting method.

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Guest Hooli

Only fault I've had with a clutch out the box was a release bearing falling apart as I up wrapped it. No idea what make that was though as it years ago.

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