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1600E What is the modern equivalent?


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#31 OFFLINE   Kringle

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 07:59 AM

The car that gets stolen/ has parts nicked regularly is the Fiesta ST. Maybe that or a 500 Abarth.
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#32 OFFLINE   NorfolkNWeigh

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:26 AM

As others have said, aspirations have changed and cars become so cheap in real terms, that a top spec Repmobile is unlikely to become as desirable as "The E" . There was a time every young hooligan knew exactly what you meant when you referred to car as that. My own first car was a 1970 1600 deluxe Cortina that got sticky back plastic wood trim and Rover P6 seats to look like an E- I couldn't afford even scrapyard prices for real wood and seats.
I think the 2.8i Ghia X Granada had a similar desire demographic then maybe Sapphire Cossie's . Since then Ford have been left behind by the (proper) Germans, with as Ghosty says, the Golf R probably been the top of the tree- I know 3 Golf R drivers, all over 50 and at least one has Astons,Bentleys etc but uses his Golf everyday, but crucially most teenagers would be aware of and want one too.
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Leicester City team car park a couple of years ago when they won the Association game's league, apparentlly.
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The England World Champions, just before failing to defend their title .

Do we think this years England squad would be happy with a free Mondeo , even a Vignale?

My 18 year old nephew is a footballer , playing in Sweden this season, so not on UK wages, yet. He has friends that are signed to Premiership teams and the car of choice for them seems to be the Merc GLA, presumably insurable by ( rich) teenagers. So could this be the modern equivalent? May God have mercy on our souls.
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#33 OFFLINE   mercrocker

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:47 AM

I had never heard of the Mondeo Vignale until this thread.   It seems about as justified a use of the Vignale name as did the 1960 Standard Vanguard Vignale.... However, that is by the way - the piece of information I gleaned from the Auto Express report was the startling comparison between peak Cortina sales - 16500 a MONTH in the UK and the Mondeo current levels of 4000 across Europe!   

 

The 1600E was little more than an option-pack exercise on a best-selling fleet-and-family box but had that magic Ford ingredient (whatever that was) which lifted it way above the Arrow Humber Sceptre or Vauxhall VX4/90 - both similar packages but nowhere near as succesful.   

 

Even Ford themselves couldn't really repeat the trick with either the Cortina 2000E or the Orion 1600E so it's no surprise that there isn't really a modern contender.    I think the footie team picture says a lot about Britain then and now - most of us were content to aspire to Cortina GTs (or the odd Lancia Fulvia!)  


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#34 OFFLINE   Aston Martin

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 08:52 AM

There was a white Golf R estate, visiting next-doors last week. It's all you'd ever need.
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#35 OFFLINE   AMC Rebel

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:13 AM

Off topic but those World Cup Cortinas have fancy low number sequential reg numbers before the government started (officially) charging for them.
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#36 OFFLINE   fordperv

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:40 AM

Mk3 Mondeo 2.2 diesel titanium x
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#37 OFFLINE   mercrocker

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:40 AM

Big dealerships used to get runs of registrations and issue the nice ones to favoured customers....My old boss used to buy a lot of lorries and his company cars from the same distributor always had low or interesting plates.   Local licensing offices sometimes played ball directly with Joe Public and would give out a low number on request.   Back then there was little value to most numbers and of course Gubbermint had no means to sell them itself, not legally anyway!


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#38 OFFLINE   AMC Rebel

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:55 AM

I also recall them giving Yank motors and motorbikes low numbers so they'd fit on the plates.     


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#39 OFFLINE   tooSavvy

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 09:58 AM

2second spot on the Beeb thismorning >> T Dan Smith

Mk 10 Jag smoking away from camera 'DAN 124'... Or similar.

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Fucking crook!!

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#40 OFFLINE   mercrocker

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:00 AM

Think it was DAN68....Proper crook's car, the Mark Ten!


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#41 OFFLINE   johngarty

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:22 AM

Slightly off topic.

Can anyone explain why this Cortina Mk3 (which I had a couple) has a Mk4 dash?

Its not something I remember, was it an owner retro fit or some sort of late model facelift?

Thanks.

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#42 OFFLINE   mercrocker

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:28 AM

Isn't that a normal 2000E dash?


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#43 OFFLINE   AMC Rebel

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:43 AM

"Square" dash was fitted to 19753-on facelift, then carried on into Mk4  


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#44 OFFLINE   johngarty

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 10:44 AM

"Square" dash was fitted to 1975-on facelift, then carried on into Mk4  

 

Ahhh thanks, they look so different.



#45 OFFLINE   Lacquer Peel

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:24 AM

Mk3 Mondeo 2.2 diesel titanium x

It seems like you're adding a little kiss there.
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#46 OFFLINE   trigger

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:42 AM

Yep, the late 73- squire headlight facelift Mk3's had the more conventional later dash fitted, this was the one in my old one.

 

IMG_0989.JPG

 

As for the 1600E I'd also say the Focus ST-3 is the closest to being like it, a sporty, luxury version of the car your mum and dad has but also the car your dad wishes that he bought. 


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#47 OFFLINE   AMC Rebel

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:54 AM

Disagree with folks saying the ST Fords - these would be the equivalent of the Cortina GT or even Lotus IMHO.  If they made an ST with thicker carpets etc then maybe.


1994 Range Rover Classic "The Crying Pumpkin" cried off, rusty

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#48 OFFLINE   AMC Rebel

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 11:58 AM

Oh, and apologies ,Trigger's right, it was the late 73 facelift that added square dash, not 75


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1956 Chevy 210 4 door hardtop - bought in 2000 and still in my garage - I even do a bit of work on it occasionally - long term project

2005 MG ZT-T awaiting completion of engine transplant of spare V6 after OMG HGF on the engine that "never has that problem"

2005 Land Rover Discovery - for long trips and moving engines 


#49 OFFLINE   Junkman

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:26 PM

The newfangled logical successor to the 1600E is the BMW X5 and nowt else.


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#50 OFFLINE   mk2_craig

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 01:42 PM

Golf R is about 300hp isn't it? Which is more Focus RS territory - sixties equivalent the Lotus Cortina.

I don't think a Kuga, even a kitted-up one is brimming in street cred. Though I may be behind the curve here. NB I own a Qashqai and not the Focus estate I really wanted to buy :(

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#51 OFFLINE   NorfolkNWeigh

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 02:10 PM

Didn't Subaru try selling a luxury Impreza at one point? Leather and wood* with no rear spoiler , but still all the performance of a regular Turbo, that's spiritually the equivalent of the GT/ Lotus to 1600E .

Or even the 205 Gentry or 2.9Ghia 4x4 Sierra estate compared to the GTi/ XR.

I had a Bellmont CD as a company car for a while and that was as quick as most hot hatches of the day but with lots of blue velour and brown plastic wood.

Just realised none of these are 'modern'...
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#52 OFFLINE   Yoss

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 06:23 PM

There are several reasons why there is no equivalent today. Mainly, whilst there were foreign cars available, few people bought them. So basically you had a choice of Ford Vauxhall Leyland and Rootes group. They in turn offered a small car, a medium car and a large car (I'm simplifying massively here obviously and not including luxury or sports cars). So when Ford came out with a fancy version of a regular Joe public car it stood out.

These days there are dozens of manufacturers each producing dozens of cars. There's no such thing as small medium and large any more. They seem to go up in tiny increments from supermini (Which isn't really) to super massive SUV.

I think the Dolomite Sprint and mk1 Golf GTI may have taken the mantle for a while but nothing since as that's when the amount of different models started multiplying massively, diluting the market.
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#53 OFFLINE   timolloyd

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 06:59 PM

This is also about options lists, no? In the day of the 1600E model ranges were very limited as were optional extras. So a special little model designation like the E was very special indeed.

These days I imagine it's difficult to find 2 examples of the same model of any car, with the same spec. So while we still have trim levels, people don't recognise them in the same way as they used to.
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#54 OFFLINE   mercrocker

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 08:18 AM

This is also about options lists, no? In the day of the 1600E model ranges were very limited as were optional extras. So a special little model designation like the E was very special indeed.

These days I imagine it's difficult to find 2 examples of the same model of any car, with the same spec. So while we still have trim levels, people don't recognise them in the same way as they used to.

 

Very true and a trend started by Ford within a couple of years of the 1600E coming out....The original Capri was theoretically available with any combination of 4 engines, three trim levels and some so-called "delete" options within those.   You could, for example, have specially ordered a 2000GT with only "R" trim and not had a black rear panel - no fag lighter, no radio etc.  That was before the 3 litre was added!   It was interesting, though, that the top model soon became the all-in-one 3000E for a short-lived pre-facelift period.

 

None of the other Ford "E"s seem to have had the impact of the 1600E itself, though - Escort 1300E, Corsair 2000E (except for its gearbox!) or even the Zodiac Executive which was perhaps too subtle.  


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#55 OFFLINE   JeeExEll

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 09:21 AM

Easy to forget that the 1600E was only made for less than 3 years in total, autumn 1967 till summer 1970. The early s1 cars with the hump-dashtop were only made for ONE year. Yet fifty years on and people still like 1600Es.
That's almost like a production lifespan of a car introduced for autumn 2015 and being discontinued this month.

See also, Mk1 Escort RS2000, total factory production spring 73 - autumn 74, 18 months !
Capri Mk1 RS3100, 3 months !

From memory, I think total 1600E production was something like 55,000 or 58,000.
I was chatting to my dad about this last night to get his perspective. He was a massive Cortina fan. In 1973 he was 31, bought a 1970 fern green 1600E, JSO 300H. I was 5.
Not this one, but exactly like it. Look at it, imagine what that looked like to a car-mad 5 year old :-) ↓ ↓

N06Osky.jpg

Kept it 2 years, (written off in 1978 by the next owner), then in 1975 a daytona 1973 Mk3 GXL for 2 years (PSO 520L), then a purple velvet 2000E (BAV 895N), kept till around 1983.

During the 70s the top Cortinas were special, a bit of bling but not that expensive to buy or run. Simple basic design, easy to fix and work on. Our family had stacks of 70s Fords, almost all from the same Ford dealer in town, some bought brand new. On Christmas day when everyone met at my gran's the street was full of Cortinas and Capris and Granadas, loads of models and colours, different each year (hence my lifelong 70s Ford geekery).

By the late 70s he had an eye on a few other cars (Dolomite Sprint, Magnum 2300, Victor FE VX4/90, possibly a very late 70s Fiat 132 2000 - BMW 2002s were very interesting but expensive). Also, by the late 70s the sharp looking Mk2 Granada Ghia 2.8i had become THE Ford to have rather than the Mk4 Ghia, although the Granada was out of reach pricewise for my dad. The Mk4 Ghia, at the time, was just seen as a slightly blander newer less-rusty Mk3 2000E. And Mk2 / Mk3s really could rust, even when well looked after - regular attention from the paint-bodyshop and new front wings by 5 years old to be expected.

His next Cortina was a terracotta 1981 2.0GL, TSE 85X. Bought in 83 and kept till 96. By 1983 the choice of cars had increased massively, the Cortina 2300 Ghia didn't have the same impact at all of the 1600E. His Mk5 was garaged every night, 70k on it by 1996, still rotten as a pear.

By 1996 everything had changed, Sierras and Mondeos didn't interest him, so a minty used e30 BMW 320i was bought. A neat little 4-door which was well made and great to drive. And he's had 3-series BMWs ever since, all around 2 - 2.5 litre engine size.

I think the modern 1600E equivalent would still have to be a down-to-earth Ford, the top Mondeo Ghia. But there is so much choice around now that the impact is lost. When you can buy a 5-litre BMW 5-series then a Mondeo doesn't look that special anymore. Also, cars have become so bloated and vastly over-complicated and electronic that all character has been designed out of them.

I'd rather have an excellent condition 1970 1600E with it's 4-speed and 88bhp 1600GT (around 25 or 26mpg, shock horror !), vinyl seats, and wind up windows.

Edit, I think Ford still missed a couple of opportunities though - a 1600E Estate, and also a factory 3000E version. (See Cortina Savage, etc). Such an easy conversion, almost entirely mix-&-match bolt-in, Corsair V4 crossmember, etc.
Two-door 1600Es were available but nearly all left-hand-drive. Missed marketing opportunity for a 'luxury compact hardtop-coupe'.
There was also a company who would convert 4-door 1600Es to the Lotus Twin-Cam engine, although I've never seen one (company called Lumo I think).

2-door 1600E :-)
Nil8l0e.jpg
(as you can possibly tell, I am a huge fan of 1600Es, a neat size and they just look so right, although I accept that they have their limitations and had outdated steering and handling even by the early 70s).
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#56 OFFLINE   artdjones

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 09:34 AM

I don't know what the modern equivalent to the 1600E is,but I think the FB + FC VX4/90s may have been where Ford got the idea.
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#57 OFFLINE   mercrocker

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:28 AM

I often think the FB VX4/90 was the beginning of all those 60s sports versions of family cars.   However, BMC must get a mention for the Riley One-Point-Five - a plush GT Morris Minor that should really have got the MG badge.


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#58 OFFLINE   AMC Rebel

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:30 AM

Missed opportunity for 'luxury compact hardtop-coupe'.
 

 

History is littered with these -

 

2 Door saloon cars were the povvo option until BMW decided they could be called coupe and charged even more for despite the lack of doors

 

5 door hatchback "execs" - Rover SD1, later Ford Grannies etc were killed off as un-exec until BMW decided they could call 'em GT and charge extra.

 

The Allegro was called ugly, but BMW re-invented it for the 2010s and called it the Mini Countryman

 

The Rover Streetwise was an early Nissan Juke


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2005 Land Rover Discovery - for long trips and moving engines 


#59 OFFLINE   JeeExEll

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:40 AM

Ford could have ruined it all too by releasing (maybe for 1969, instead of the s2 1600E), an 'improved' Mk2 1600E with the V4 GT engine, a Cortina Mk2 2000E.

I don't think an Essex V4 Mk2 Cortina would have had the same appeal, but am surprised they didn't make any V4 Mk2s.
For a short time the V4 Essex was considered for competition use and there were a few works Mk1 Escort V4 rally cars built, late 60s. (I think Roger Clark tested one but could be wrong).
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#60 OFFLINE   5speedracer

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Posted 17 May 2018 - 10:57 AM

Easy to forget that the 1600E was only made for less than 3 years in total, autumn 1967 till early summer 1970. The early s1 cars with the hump-dashtop were only made for ONE year. Yet fifty years on and people still like 1600Es.
That's like a production lifespan of a car introduced for autumn 2015 and being discontinued this month.

See also, Mk1 Escort RS2000, total factory production 18 months !
Capri Mk1 RS3100, 3 months !

From memory, I think total 1600E production was something like 55,000 or 58,000.
I was chatting to my dad about this last night to get his perspective. He was a massive Cortina fan. In 1973 he was 31, bought a 1970 fern green 1600E, JSO 300H.
Not this one, but exactly like it.

https://i.imgur.com/N06Osky.jpg...

Kept it 2 years, (written off in 1978 by the next owner), then in 1975 a daytona 1973 Mk3 GXL for 2 years (PSO 520L), then a purple velvet 2000E (BAV 895N), kept till around 1983.

During the 70s the top Cortinas were special, a bit of bling but not that expensive to buy or run. Simple basic design, easy to fix and work on. Our family had stacks of 70s Fords, almost all from the same Ford dealer in town some bought brand new. On Christmas day when everyone met at my gran's the street was full of Cortinas and Capris and Granadas, loads of models and colours, different each year (hence my lifelong 70s Ford geekery).

By the late 70s he had an eye on a few other cars (Dolomite Sprint, Magnum 2300, Victor FE VX4/90, possibly a very late 70s Fiat 132 2000). Also, by the late 70s the sharp looking Mk2 Granada Ghia 2.8i had become THE Ford to have rather than the Mk4 Ghia, although the Granada was out of reach pricewise for my dad. The Mk4 Ghia, at the time, was just seen as a slightly blander newer less-rusty Mk3 2000E. And Mk2 / Mk3s really could rust, even when well looked after - regular attention from the paint-bodyshop and new front wings by 5 years old to be expected.

His next Cortina was a terracotta 1981 2.0GL, TSE 85X. Bought in 83 and kept till 96. By 1983 the choice of cars had increased massively, the Cortina 2300 Ghia didn't have the same impact at all of the 1600E. His Mk5 was garaged every night, 70k on it by 1996, still rotten as a pear.

By 1996 everything had changed, Sierras and Mondeos didn't interest him, so a minty used e30 BMW 320i was bought. A neat little 4-door which was well made and great to drive. And he's had 3-series BMWs ever since, all around 2 - 2.5 litre engine size.

I think the modern equivalent would still have to be a down-to-earth Ford, the top Mondeo Ghia. But there is so much choice around now that the impact is lost. When you can buy a 5-litre BMW 5-series then a Mondeo doesn't look that special anymore. Also, cars have become so bloated and vastly over-complicated and electronic that all character has been designed out of them.

I'd rather have an excellent condition 1970 1600E with it's 4-speed and 88bhp 1600GT (around 25 or 26mpg, shock horror !), vinyl seats, and wind up windows.

Edit, I think Ford still missed a couple of opportunities though - a 1600E Estate, and also a factory 3000E version. (See Cortina Savage, etc). Such an easy conversion, almost entirely mix-&-match bolt-in, Corsair V4 crossmember, etc.
Two-door 1600Es were available but nearly all left-hand-drive. Missed opportunity for 'luxury compact hardtop-coupe'.
There was also a company who would convert 4-door 1600Es to the Lotus Twin-Cam engine, although I've never seen one (company called Lumo I think).

2-door 1600E :-)
https://i.imgur.com/Nil8l0e.jpg...
(as you can possibly tell, I am a huge fan of 1600Es, a neat size and they just look so right, although I accept that they have their limitations and had outdated steering and handling even by the early 70s).

Your father proves exactly my thoughts on the subject.
It has to be a 3 series, nicer parked in front of the house than a Mondeo but still not too dear to run.
Neighbour has a current shape 318 in met white, nice car, all you need and not too flash.

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