Driving and insuring a Cat B car

[SiC]

His name is certainly mentioned a lot around online isn't it. I bet the police had quite a lot of enjoyment seeing it crushed.

 

At the end of the day it's not a rare car, nor old and is still readily replaceable. Still in production, no?

 

I can't imagine the police would have taken the decision lightly though. Especially at risk of litigation. Looks like he often appeals, fails with a big bill and then tried to appeal with "new evidence".

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Yes, and as far as I can see in this thread we've established that that reason is because insurance companies have decreed it should be so, not because it has any basis in actual law. And to answer your questions:

 

1. Copart, Motorhog, or probably more appropriately in this case, one of the many specialist supercar breakers.

 

2. I wasn't suggesting that the police just help themselves to stolen goods and flog them off...stolen parts belong to their original owner, or to the insurance company that paid out on them when they were nicked. If I had a load of parts nicked and then found that the police had recovered them and then crushed them without offering them to me back, I'd be absolutely raging.

 

 

Do you not think the Police would have considered all of this? I have a suspicion they may well have done.....

 

It's got fuck all to do with the car. It's about sending a message to scum who consider themselves above the law. Well guess what? You're not. And, you've just lost north of 100 grand.

[Dave_Q]

Mr Khan claims he legitimately bought the car at auction, via a middleman, and had spent £248,000 on the vehicle

 

Looks like you can buy a non fucked one for £150-200,000 so he's a pretty shit businessman if he's managed to spend £248,000.

[Rave]

Do you not think the Police would have considered all of this? I have a suspicion they may well have done.....

 

It's got fuck all to do with the car. It's about sending a message to scum who consider themselves above the law. Well guess what? You're not. And, you've just lost north of 100 grand.

 

So, you accept that the car was worth 100 grand before it was destroyed, then, I take it?

 

And so I also take it that you think that the best use of 100 grand is to throw it in a crusher to prove a point, rather than, say, put it back into police funds, or donate it to charity, or return it to the people or companies who lost money originally when their stuff got nicked.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree in that case   .

[SiC]

Looks like he bought a cat b Ferrari and repaired* it. Repaired being many different possibilities...

 

The £200k valuation (sometimes £250k in some articles) appears to be the number either he's put on it or the media has used to make it sensationaist. Basically over hyped by the media, bouyed on and shaped by him on social media. I suspect we're only seeing one side of the story here.

 

I think the cubed vehicle should have gone on the back of a truck and paraded around as way of pointing out that crime doesn't pay, etc.

[Dave_Q]

The police come across all sorts of illegal things that have a theoretical value.

 

I can see the point of view that crushing the car is a waste, but if you extend the logic to other stuff they confiscate from their "customers" then they'd end up flogging off the guns and drugs they seize to top up the biscuit fund and/or donate to charity.

 

If they profit from illegal things they will get far more criticism than for destroying them.

[SiC]

So, you accept that the car was worth 100 grand before it was destroyed, then, I take it?

 

And so I also take it that you think that the best use of 100 grand is to throw it in a crusher to prove a point, rather than, say, put it back into police funds, or donate it to charity, or return it to the people or companies who lost money originally when their stuff got nicked.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree in that case .

I'd be highly surprised that the police would get 100k back if they didn't crush it. The court cases in him trying to get it back would have racked up far more costs. Plus there is the issue of handling potentially dubious parts and just feeding the system again with its remains. I'd imagine where ever it ended up, the scrapyard could have been persuaded* to sell it back to the guy too. Not a good situation and then the cycle would have repeated by seizing it again.

After all said and done, the public purse would have got a fraction of its value back. Neither would have it been in the public interest to either.

 

When police seize a vehicle, I don't believe have to scrap it. They're not that silly. If it's of low value they will of course. However stuff of value can well be sold back on.

 

Sorry but another daily fail link but still has some shreds of truth in it:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3819552/Police-raise-1-6m-selling-scrapping-uninsured-cars-2016.html

 

Forces confirmed they had confiscated in excess of 22,594 vehicles by mid-June, with 2,866 of these being sold at auction for a total of £1.4m - cash that has gone back into police funds, a Churchill Car Insurance study has said.

 

Another 6,827 of the cars commandeered from drivers without insurance or a valid licence have also been crushed, raising an additional £279,253 in scrap value for constabularies across the country.

 

The Met Police is the biggest earner out of scrapping and selling cars that have been seized from people driving illegally.

 

It generated over £788,000 from auction sales and nearly £109,000 in scrap values after impounding 6,827 vehicles between January and mid-June 2016.

 

These are cars seized but then not retrieved by their owners.

 

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I'd be highly surprised that the police would get 100k back if they didn't crush it. The court cases in him trying to get it back would have racked up far more costs. Plus there is the issue of handling potentially dubious parts and just feeding the system again with its remains. I'd imagine where ever it ended up, the scrapyard could have been persuaded* to sell it back to the guy too. Not a good situation and then the cycle would have repeated by seizing it again.

After all said and done, the public purse would have got a fraction of its value back. Neither would have it been in the public interest to either.

 

When police seize a vehicle, I don't believe have to scrap it. They're not that silly. If it's of low value they will of course. However stuff of value can well be sold back on.

 

Sorry but another daily fail link but still has some shreds of truth in it:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-3819552/Police-raise-1-6m-selling-scrapping-uninsured-cars-2016.html

 

 

 

 

Cheers, saved me a job! 

 

Some folk just don't get it, alas. 

[SiC]

I think the end of that article answers the question to its value if was sold:

A total of 52 Porsches, 11 Ferraris and six Bentleys and Lamborghinis were among the list of exotic motors temporarily seized from owners who did not have insurance to drive them.

 

While it is highly unlikely these ultra expensive cars were not reclaimed by their registered keepers, some of the vehicles eventually sold at auction were far from cheap.

 

The highest single-car sale value achieved in 2016 was £22,100, secured by the Met Police, Churchill said.

 

I.e. feck all in the grand scheme of things. The most was about the price of a new Ford Focus.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I absolutely despise waste. Society chucks decent, usable stuff away everyday far, far too much. It's something that really boils me up. Especially when stuff can be fixed for a couple of quid and an hour or so of time.

 

However a single instance of a modern, mostly carbon fibre tub of a Ferrari that has large questionable originality and legality that goes to the cuber ... I think is not the worst thing thats happened in this world by any stretch really.

 

Not a lot of metal in that cube either, so probably even worth much now!

 

Just remember that there isn't many of those Ferraris around. Not so many get crashed and not repaired either - as often worth repairing unless utterly totalled. Often front end bumps too, so parts are scarce. So where do you think the parts could end up coming from to fix them...?

[Rave]

I'd be highly surprised that the police would get 100k back if they didn't crush it. The court cases in him trying to get it back would have racked up far more costs.

 

Sorry, but this is a nonsensical argument. "Yeah, I was going to sue the police for the return of my property, but now they've crushed it I'll just suck it up", said nobody ever.

 

In any case, the story is about the dodgy owner suing the police, so if they were actually hoping that that would work, they seem to have been disappointed.

 

 

Just remember that there isn't many of those Ferraris around. Not so many get crashed and not repaired either - as often worth repairing unless utterly totalled. Often front end bumps too, so parts are scarce. So where do you think the parts could end up coming from to fix them...?

 

Well I dunno...perhaps from Ferrari?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Christ. You would need to strip the car, find out where the bits came from, and then do you think the insurance company really give a fuck?

 

Years ago I bought a ten year old LHD German registered S Class (W140) for £600. It was in the place that stored my cars and had been there for two years, no fees paid and the guy wanted it gone. I took a gamble on it and it turned out to be stolen - well, the guy who drove it in nicked it from his Mrs and hid it. £600 down the pan? No, the German police weren't interested and neither were Allianz. 

 

I kept the car and sold it on.

 

 

I wanted to see the full video seeing the Fezza getting the full treatment. 

[Rave]

The police come across all sorts of illegal things that have a theoretical value.

 

I can see the point of view that crushing the car is a waste, but if you extend the logic to other stuff they confiscate from their "customers" then they'd end up flogging off the guns and drugs they seize to top up the biscuit fund and/or donate to charity.

 

If they profit from illegal things they will get far more criticism than for destroying them.

 

Drugs and (hand) guns are illegal. I would be pretty aghast if the police destroyed a valuable antique shotgun (or even a valuable modern one like a Beretta Extrema) rather than than auctioning it off, as well.

 

The whole point of this thread is that we have established that the fact that the car was a category B does not in any way mean that it is not a legal and viable car. The insurance industry may not want it to be on the road, but that is not in itself a valid reason to destroy it. And so the question is who owned it, or indeed who owned the various bits of it that were alleged to be stolen. Why would anyone who owned a valuable bit of Ferrari want to see their property crushed?

 

Has this bloke actually been prosecuted for theft of parts? If not, then until he is, he is innocent in the eyes of the law, and the status of the car as being part or all stolen must be called into question. Presumably crushing parts doesn't make it easier to use them as evidence in a prosecution, either.

[Rave]

Christ. You would need to strip the car, find out where the bits came from, and then do you think the insurance company really give a fuck?

 

Years ago I bought a ten year old LHD German registered S Class (W140) for £600. It was in the place that stored my cars and had been there for two years, no fees paid and the guy wanted it gone. I took a gamble on it and it turned out to be stolen - well, the guy who drove it in nicked it from his Mrs and hid it. £600 down the pan? No, the German police weren't interested and neither were Allianz. 

 

I kept the car and sold it on.

 

Right, so a stolen Mercedes didn't get crushed and lived on. And yet the police were right to crush a much more valuable car in the form of this Ferrari. Have I stumbled into some weird wormhole where logic and sense tie themselves in knots, or something?

[SiC]

Sorry, but this is a nonsensical argument. "Yeah, I was going to sue the police for the return of my property, but now they've crushed it I'll just suck it up", said nobody ever.

 

In any case, the story is about the dodgy owner suing the police, so if they were actually hoping that that would work, they seem to have been disappointed.

They wouldn't have crushed it unless they were allowed to. All the i's dotted and t's crossed. My point was if the police sold it as salvage, they or the public purse wouldn't have got anywhere near 100k for it.

 

Even if he does take them to court, it's going to take a long time and cost a lot of money. At the bottom end of the legal scale, you're looking at hundreds of pounds per hour in lawyer fees. Can't imagine legal aid being applicable in this case either. I suspect it's all lip and once it blows away nothing more will be said.

 

 

Well I dunno...perhaps from Ferrari?

Using a number plate that shows up as a category B?! Good luck on that on a Ferrari and a low volume manufactured car.

 

Anyway, at this end of the market things work a bit differently. Parts are manufactured in short runs to provide enough parts for the built cars and some spares. The (expensive) tooling is then squirreled away for future runs. However a production run is hideously expensive (especially for plastic moulding) and also just setting up the tool puts wear on it. So unless they need to make a decent quantity, they won't.

 

Instead, what happens is that the parts get rebuilt and refurbished on an exchange basis. Especially for parts like light units. So unless they had the original damaged parts, they won't get a replacement. Even if they did, it's going to be in the many thousands.

 

As it was a category B write-off, it's highly likely the carbon tub would have been damaged and/or significantly weakened. You can't easily fix that sort of damage on a carbon tub. It's not like you can weld or glue the bits together, as its the impregnanted carbon weave that gives the strength. Very different technologies and techniques than your average press steel journeyman vehicle.

 

So it can't it be repaired to a roadworthy standard. This is what I suspect that this side of the story hasn't been told.

 

Realistically the only way of properly repairing it is replacing the whole tub. Which ain't cheap.

[warren t claim]

What's the criteria for the cat ratings? I've driven trucks that the previous driver has died in due to an accident. 

[Rave]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, or what point that disagrees with what I have been saying, at least?

 

If what you say about Ferrari parts is true, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, then there were many thousands of pounds worth of panels, headlights, wheels etc. attached to that possibly weakened and dangerous tub. They should have been removed and used to repair other cars, not crushed. There are specialist breakers in this country who would have been pleased to do the job.

 

And OK, so it might only have netted the police 25 grand, if we accept for the sake of argument that it was theirs to do with what they like. 25 grand is about the starting salary for a newly qualified copper. Do you really think that 25 grand's worth of point was made by destroying it? Because I don't.

 

And re: dotting the is and crossing the ts- you clearly have a lot more faith in the competence of the police than I do.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Right, so a stolen Mercedes didn't get crushed and lived on. And yet the police were right to crush a much more valuable car in the form of this Ferrari. Have I stumbled into some weird wormhole where logic and sense tie themselves in knots, or something?

 

For fucks sake. The Ferrari was a Cat B write off because it was smashed to buggery and deemed unsafe to repair by a qualified assessor. That’s why they wanted it crushed.

 

The Merc was stolen and undamgaged.

[Jazoli]

Why are people getting so wound up about a car being crushed? In the overall scheme if things it's fuck all, some folk really don't *get* it.

[HMC]

Maybe the owner can keep a few badges and make one of those crap TR7/F40 kit cars?

Maybe someone could make a TR7 replica out of it.

[SiC]

And OK, so it might only have netted the police 25 grand, if we accept for the sake of argument that it was theirs to do with what they like. 25 grand is about the starting salary for a newly qualified copper. Do you really think that 25 grand's worth of point was made by destroying it? Because I don't.

 

I do in this one particular case and one particular car. Remember it's only a bit of carbon fibre and metal made by a bunch of Italians a few years ago. Not really rare or irreplaceable.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[Rave]

Why are people getting so wound up about a car being crushed? In the overall scheme if things it's fuck all, some folk really don't *get* it.

 

I've explained at considerable length why I'm wound up about it. If you think I've made a factual mistake in one of my posts why not pick me up on it, or point out what point it is that you think I'm missing?

[Rave]

For fucks sake. The Ferrari was a Cat B write off because it was smashed to buggery and deemed unsafe to repair by a qualified assessor. That’s why they wanted it crushed.

 

The Merc was stolen and undamgaged.

 

OK, this is a serious question, I'm not just arguing on for the sake of not losing face. Do we actually know what was wrong with the car that caused it to be written off as a category B? We've already established that flood damage will do it. Dunking a carbon fibre tub doesn't make it unsafe as far as I'm aware.

 

I suspect, unfortunately, that satisfactory answers in this case will not be forthcoming. It does sound as if dodgy geezer is just spouting hot air, if he was actually going to sue the police he'd just serve them, not write a letter whinging about it. But that doesn't mean that the police were therefore automatically right to crush thousands of pounds worth of Ferrari components. And if they were doing it to make a point, why not actually make that point by releasing the video, rather than waiting a year for dodgy to request it and release it himself? Something smells, here.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

There was a photo of it ploughed into a wall. It was Cat B and thus written off and required to be scrapped - end of story.

 

You want absolute wanton waste and destruction for willy waving? Here we go;

 

https://www.driving.co.uk/video/youll-cry-watch-400000-worth-sports-cars-crushed-bulldozer-philippines/

 

 

Forget the modern crap, a Z1, Manta and Alpina B12 plus 124 Mercs. Destroyed.

[Alexg]

The Police can't sell a car as a whole they deem potentially unsafe and made up of stolen parts. Anyway, who's to stop the offender buying the thing back at auction? 

 

They can't sell the parts individually because the Police have no idea of their validity, integrity, and can't be seen to be promoting the marketing of stolen goods.

 

They can't remove them, ascertain which are stolen, and post it back to Mr Gibbs saying 'sorry about your missing 458, but good news, we've recovered your exhaust mount.' Anyway, insurance will have paid out on them.

 

It's also about the message. You can't flout the law in such a massively c**tish fashion, you can't add stolen bits to a fucked car and make it legal. In to the crusher it goes with the 2010 Fiesta of similar ilk. 

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Likewise, Copart etc can't sell the car or its parts for the same reason. That would mean another company making a profit from selling potentially hooky bits.

 

Crush it whole, problem solved. It's gone, no comebacks. 

[SiC]

Was it this one? I see on PH someone suggested it, but have no evidence either way:

 

Here is the actual car in question, when Mr Kahn was at a court attendance.

 

Noticed how its parked on the pavement...

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Could be.

[SiC]

Do you know what is wilful damage of a now rare vehicle, and really irks me. This case:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1732970

 

Identically I think the poster is on the wrong forum and should really be here.

[Rave]

The Police can't sell a car as a whole they deem potentially unsafe and made up of stolen parts. Anyway, who's to stop the offender buying the thing back at auction?

 

They can't sell the parts individually because the Police have no idea of their validity, integrity, and can't be seen to be promoting the marketing of stolen goods.

 

They can't remove them, ascertain which are stolen, and post it back to Mr Gibbs saying 'sorry about your missing 458, but good news, we've recovered your exhaust mount.' Anyway, insurance will have paid out on them.

 

It's also about the message. You can't flout the law in such a massively c**tish fashion, you can't add stolen bits to a fucked car and make it legal. In to the crusher it goes with the 2010 Fiesta of similar ilk. 

 

There's nothing to stop the 'offender' buying it back at auction.

 

So what?

 

He'll then have had his car taken away and been forced to pay the market value (at the auction on the day) to get it back, with that money going to the police and or the rightful owners of the parts. Then it's his fully legally. It's not being given back to him, is it?

 

As for the police " can't be seen to be promoting the marketing of stolen goods" , what do you think the stuff that gets sold at police auctions is?

 

Category B cars are sold at auction all the time. Even leaving aside the arguments about whether they have to be broken or not, there is nothing about this particular Category B car that meant it had to be crushed whole when others are not.

[Alexg]

 

As for the police " can't be seen to be promoting the marketing of stolen goods" , what do you think the stuff that gets sold at police auctions is?

 

Yeah, but they're known and catalogued. Frig knows what's in that Ferrari.

 

 

There's nothing to stop the 'offender' buying it back at auction.

 

So what?

 

He'll then have had his car taken away and been forced to pay the market value (at the auction on the day) to get it back, with that money going to the police and or the rightful owners of the parts. Then it's his fully legally. It's not being given back to him, is it?

 

 

You don't seriously believe that do you??? You're comfortable with a criminal buying good's he's stolen back from the police, for auction value, potentially financed using the proceeds of crime? Sounds like a massive Vs-up to fairness and justice in this country.

 

Ultimately that Ferrari is not legitimate, selling it legitimises it. And selling it back to the villain is a massive fuck-you to the whole system.