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320Touring's Citroen GSA. Parts Purchase Success 26/11/18


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#421 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 10:37 PM

Almost a salmon pink colour in the sun.


If salmon wore hearing aids..
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#422 OFFLINE   Zelandeth

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 10:45 PM

Interesting, the whole balance pipe over the top setup with the exhaust is almost exactly the same as the setup in the Invacar, just that the top half of the pipe on that is part of the inlet manifold.

Current fleet: 1996 Citroen Xantia 2.0T Activa. 1993 Lada Riva 1.5EFi Estate.  1990 Mercedes 208D Auto Trail Navajo.  1985 Sinclair C5.  1973 & 1975 AC Model 70s.


#423 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 10:51 PM

Interesting, the whole balance pipe over the top setup with the exhaust is almost exactly the same as the setup in the Invacar, just that the top half of the pipe on that is part of the inlet manifold.


It's bizarre to a boy who has only ever played with VW boxers - so much complexity on these engines, but it has a starting handle and a manual choke..

Not to mention a carb.

Weird! But fun to work on so far.
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#424 OFFLINE   BavarianRetro

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 07:02 AM

Surely having had the distributor out and the points out of that, you'd want to check the timing?

Chasing poor running is points, then timing, then fuel.

I've a light if you need to borrow it.

#425 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 07:44 AM

Surely having had the distributor out and the points out of that, you'd want to check the timing?

Chasing poor running is points, then timing, then fuel.

I've a light if you need to borrow it.


We checked the timing, was bang on the 10degrees as recommended by hbol.cheers for offer of the gun!

So we one point are gapped ok, timing is to spec. That leaves fuelling then..

Assuming it's happy to start this morning, I'll not be doing anything for a couple of days - need it for using.

I can investigate more if needed
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#426 OFFLINE   mrcitroen

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 02:47 PM

Yesterday was good fun. I enjoyed it.


Yes, we gapped the points to the recommended .35mm set the timing to 10 deg btdc using my fancy snap on strobe and fitted new correctly gapped plugs.

It did run much better after that. The points had closed up considerably. The SEV Marchal cassette points are a nightmare. To adjust them the dizzy needs to come out, but I showed Neil that you can drill a hole in the dizzy body and insert an Allen key and adjust in situ. A dwell gauge is used if going that route.

Incidentally, I have the factory manual and it recommends setting the points by dwell rather than gap.

I definatley think the carby needs a service kit thrown at it. I done that on my more complicated Solex and it made the world of a difference. Luckily Neil has the much nicer Webber.

All good fun. The car is a wee cracker really. Most importantly it's solid in all the right bits.
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1978 Citroen GS Pallas.
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#427 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 03:25 PM

It was a good day:) I learned a fair bit, and the teacher was patient!

It made Forfar for Oxford welding and is currently sunning itself.

Young Mr Tickman thought it drove well and much quieter!
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#428 OFFLINE   mrcitroen

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 04:11 PM

Good good.

Once a G is on song, it's unbeatable. Lovely smooth turbine like engines. Gave it some beans when we went across the dukes pass last night. One if my fav roads.
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#429 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 08:12 PM

These engines are quite something, they look a dog's breakfast on the outside compared with German boxers but are far better engineered where it matters. Few production engines are good for 8000rpm+, let alone the ten thou they were originally designed for... someone realised your average Frenchman, even were he used to 2cvs, wouldn't be happy revving so high.

The pre-production engines were deemed not sufficiently quiet at idle given the quality of the cars, so economy was sacrificed for a little less noise by adjusting the shape of the combustion chamber.

I've had one (1015) with a documented 300k+ miles with nothing more than sealing of the common oil drip from the O-rings on the return pipes for the heads. It ran smoother than any Porsche boxer unit I've driven and like any really good air-cooled Cit, power delivery took off over about 5500rpm with no apparent ceiling - I limited it to 9, given the miles.

I always struggled with fuel mileage, perhaps because English roads often don't suit the cars well, they're too congested and small. 90 always seemed the natural cruising speed, 1015 or 1222. So I used CXs in part for their towing ability - but always missed the utterly amazing flat four. If only it had been engineered for 1300-1800cc, which would have made more sense for the German and UK markets.
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#430 OFFLINE   mrcitroen

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 09:04 PM

Yep, mine just loves to rev and rev and rev! The more it revs the smoother it becomes. It just encourages you to press on.
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#431 OFFLINE   Zelandeth

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 11:11 PM

Really need to drive one of these cars one day. Been a passenger in one when I was really young but never driven one. CX, XM, Xantia (obviously), and 2CV...but never had a shot of a GSA. Visa is the other obvious gap.

Stop making me want one even more than I already do.

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#432 OFFLINE   cort1977

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:53 AM

Really need to drive one of these cars one day. Been a passenger in one when I was really young but never driven one. CX, XM, Xantia (obviously), and 2CV...but never had a shot of a GSA. Visa is the other obvious gap.

Stop making me want one even more than I already do.

 

Agreed, all this Citroen bothering is making me want one as well.


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#433 OFFLINE   Tickman

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 06:50 AM

Really need to drive one of these cars one day. Been a passenger in one when I was really young but never driven one. CX, XM, Xantia (obviously), and 2CV...but never had a shot of a GSA. Visa is the other obvious gap.

Stop making me want one even more than I already do.


If it helps I can say it is not very nice to drive.



Obviously that isn't true so just don't read this bit :)

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#434 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 04:08 PM

Really need to drive one of these cars one day. Been a passenger in one when I was really young but never driven one. CX, XM, Xantia (obviously), and 2CV...but never had a shot of a GSA. Visa is the other obvious gap.
Stop making me want one even more than I already do.


They're more rapid, super-smooth 2cv than anything else. Owners of big Cits never really acknowledged them for how good they were until pretty recently, probably because of this.

#435 OFFLINE   Tadhg Tiogar

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 04:16 PM

....Stop making me want one even more than I already do.

  Agreed, all this Citroen bothering is making me want one as well.

Meanwhile, in today's paper.....

image.jpeg
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#436 OFFLINE   Eddie Honda

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 04:28 PM

The SEV Marchal cassette points are a nightmare. To adjust them the dizzy needs to come out, but I showed Neil that you can drill a hole in the dizzy body and insert an Allen key and adjust in situ.

Yes, they are a nightmare. Don't bother drilling a hole though.

Because, a) the cap clip gets in the way and b ) then the inner wing gets in the way. If the first two things don't deter you then I got all of 1700 miles out of a set before the fuckers jammed-up.

Take it off and throw it down the deepest mine and get a Ducellier. A billion times less annoying!

See my GS dizzy notes (and others) on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.c...57624328682798/

ETA: then they are rotor arms with 3 or 4mm lugs. Arrrrghhh!
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#437 OFFLINE   mrcitroen

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 05:35 PM

I shortened an Allen key so that the inner wing did not get in the way. To adjust, I flicked the clip, inserted the key, re attached clip then measured the dwell.

The above is all a bit academic now as I run electronic these days. What a difference!
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#438 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 07:27 PM

after over 350km of running since we did this work, I have some queries..

Firstly, in the warmish weather we've been having, she'll start from cold and hold an idle with much less choke - this is good:)

Secondly, she feels a bit 'reluctant' up hills compared to previous - it feels a little like my Toledo - almost like it's running rich?

Lastly it 'runs on' a wee bit when switched off - again something it didnt do before.

Any suggestions on how to solve 2 & 3 please?

For clarity, we did the following:

Set the dwell to 59 degrees (spec is 55-59). Originally it was at 70degrees.

Timing was set to 10degrees before tdc.

The dizzy had some scratched marks on it - the original position relative to each other can be seen below:
Screenshot_20180507-202330.png

Once the car was timed to 10degrees Btdc, the marks were aligned, rather than offset.

The only fuel side adjustment was the change to the ldle screw (approx 1 turn in to raise idle to circa 850rpm)


The car is perfectly useable, and a helluva lot quieter than it was. The sparkplugs are new and properly gapped.

My initial thoughts are:

Try the dizzy back in the 'before' position

Beyond that, not quite sure what can be done simply (i.e. not carb rebuild!)

Cheers
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#439 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 08:45 PM

Is it possible the previous owner tweaked ignition and carb settings for the best results?

Wind the mixture screw in until the revs just begin to fall then tweak around that point for best economy/performance (apols if this like teaching fish to swim). Your ear should tell you, both at idle and while pulling.

If the balance pipe wasn't heating the under-carb area much previously then it's possible more heat is altering the running. Exhaust back pressure without all the leaks will be a little different, too. I always blanked them off if they caused bother, no ill effects.
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#440 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 08:52 PM

Is it possible the previous owner tweaked ignition and carb settings for the best results?

Wind the mixture screw in until the revs just begin to fall then tweak around that point for best economy/performance (apols if this like teaching fish to swim). Your ear should tell you, both at idle and while pulling.

If the balance pipe wasn't heating the under-carb area much previously then it's possible the heat is altering the running. Exhaust back pressure without all the leaks will be a little different, too. I always blanked them off if they caused bother, no ill effects.


It's possible indeed:)

Appreciate the info re mixture setting - I will read up and have a look - not needed from do much carb fettling, so all good advice.

Fair comment re the hotspot pipe as you say - it may be that a few things are slightly out of kilter.

I'll start with the timing and ignition leads, then look at fuel thereafter (assuming that adjusting timing and leads don't sort the running!)
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#441 OFFLINE   mrcitroen

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 06:35 PM

Running on could be an issue with the stop solenoid in the carb. While the engine is running at idle, pull the lead from the solenoid. The car should stop dead, if it continues to run as normal the solenoid is not working. Purpose of the stop solenoid is to block carb idle pathway when ignition is cut to prevent run on at shutdown. AKA Dieseling.

I know I keep going on about it like a broken record, but I was not that keen on the HT leads on your car. They were a very poor fit onto the plugs. Possible there could be a small gap between the lead terminal and plug.

I did think the car was running quite rich. The exhaust had that smell.

Don't get too hung up,on those marks on the dizzy. I know you are trying to get your head round what is going on. They would have been scribed on dizzy by some previous owner or mechanic. We have no evidence that they would have ever had any accuracy. Only accurate way to set timing is how we done it on Saturday. As it is, it's set to the book 10 dead BTDC, but the car may benefit from a little advance. I know on my G that if a go much above 12 or 13 deg BTDC it can start to pink.

Sometimes tuning cars is not all about book figures, but how it drives on the road and a small tweak may be needed.

It's all good fun and you can learn loads from just trying things. Getting an old car with un known history, to run like a Swiss watch can take ages! The rough running on mine was the carb. It was just so clogged up I'm surprised it ran. Best move ever though was fitting the electronic ignition.
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#442 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:26 PM

Aye, until you know the plugs, leads, points and coil are right there's not much point in fiddling about.

Adjusting the mixture to somewhere near however, if it's miles out, takes seconds and should be done toute de suite.

+1 to fitting electronic ignition, it used to involve a fiver and scavenging a GSa dizzy - what do people use nowadays?

#443 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:45 PM

Aye, until you know the plugs, leads, points and coil are right there's not much point in fiddling about.

Adjusting the mixture to somewhere near however, if it's miles out, takes seconds and should be done toute de suite.

+1 to fitting electronic ignition, it used to involve a fiver and scavenging a GSa dizzy - what do people use nowadays?


I can swap leads tomorrow,

ok so how do I adjust the mixture on the Weber carb?
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#444 OFFLINE   Eddie Honda

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 10:51 PM

You can't. You can play with the air bleed and idle. The rest is fixed jet.

There's an online BoL PDF but I can't find it just now.
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#445 OFFLINE   Eddie Honda

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 06:02 AM

Found the BoL:

Attached File  Citroen GS-GSA 1971-1985 Owners Workshop Manual Haynes.pdf   38.6MB   18 downloads

And the Citroen one (too large to attach)

http://citroen.cappy...itroen/8111.pdf

(Rest is here: http://citroen.cappy...cs.com/GSA.html)
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#446 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 05:43 PM

Right, I set out to sort this out this afternoon.

First up, the HT leads:

I cleaned up the spare set so I could identify them easily.
IMG_20180510_171026.jpg

Then it was a case of 'one HT lead at a time, sweet jesus' untill all 5 were on and clunked home.

IMG_20180510_172722.jpg

They certainly seemed to feel like they were making better contact.

I took it out for a test drive after it's had some time to warm up.

It was better but still hesitant and not pulling as well as I remembered.

Back to base and it was time to try the distributor.

Firstly, check where it was.
IMG_20180510_174432.jpg

Then image "whit the hell" moment, it was time to set it back to whence it came.

IMG_20180510_174728.jpg

Back out for another test drive, and it seems to better.

I'm letting it cool whilst I have dinner and will see how she is then.

Then tomorrow it needs to do circa 50 miles..
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#447 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 12:22 AM

I can swap leads tomorrow,
ok so how do I adjust the mixture on the Weber carb?


As EH says, it's adjusted with the air bleed. But I remember some trouble with iffy running on a Weber-fed GS once and I traced it to an electrovalve which was knackered - I seem to remember that as well as cutting off the fuel supply they feed the idle mix, which in turn affects how the engine pulls through the revs.

A slightly larger primary jet can improve running with modern petrol with its bio content - the carbs (they're all slightly different) which deliver a marginal fuel mix respond well to this.

Regarding timing, if it's been set correctly it should be right. It's possible it was previously over-advanced slightly, creating a lively feel but which would cause detonation flat out up the M74 on a hot day.

I'd check the internal resistance of all the HT leads, they should give the same reading through all of them - it's worth asking MrCitroen what his GS' (newish) leads read. Although the NGK plugs are new, I'd definitely do the same with them to eliminate all possibilities.
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#448 OFFLINE   artdjones

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 03:43 PM

Plus although the adjustment is only for the idle circuit,in practice that circuit is used quite a lot during lower speed normal driving.
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#449 OFFLINE   320touring

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 08:54 AM

What did you do at the weekend Neil?

On Saturday I washed and cleaned the GSA as I'd been invited along to the Stirling and District car show by the Scottish Citroen Car Club lot:)

IMG_20180512_122306.jpg IMG_20180512_125008.jpg

I fear that the material in this car has been comprehensively killed by UV - This is what came off the parcel shelf when I turned it upside down.

IMG_20180512_141650.jpg

She was parked up gleaming, but I awoke to a most unpleasant sight.

IMG_20180513_082712.jpg

Some cleaning sorted that out and it was time to head to the meeting point.

IMG_20180513_085638.jpg

Some gratuitous Traction Avant shots..

IMG_20180513_084823.jpg IMG_20180513_085242.jpg

From there we took a sneaky backroad to the showground, and got ourselves on stand.

IMG_20180513_150149.jpg

Once the show was open to the public, the old gal seemed to attract a fair bit of attention - and I was happy for folks to sit in it and try to comprehend the controls:)

A few also wanted to see it rising - again, only too happy to oblige!

The visa/GS/GSA/2cv all seemed to draw people who's parents/grandparents had one - was nice to see them remembering trips out:)

Had a couple of chaps saying they wouldn't know where to start with running an older car as a daily. I spent some time talking them through the joys* and as one remarked "the only way to learn it is by doing it"

I spent a fair time wandering round the show too - helluva lot of good cars kicking about - I'll likely write a blog on it later:)

Thanks to the car club chaps for the invite!
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#450 OFFLINE   Split_Pin

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 11:34 AM

Always a good show this one, pity I couldn't go.


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