Sold Still not fixed, take it away for cheaps (W202 content)

[paulplom]

I take it the door card is still off?

 

What I would do is get one of these:

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F263089616120

 

And a pokey tool like this:

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F152506596737

 

Use them to look/poke inside the door and pull on the bit of the latch that the rod normally pulls on.

 

 

PS, I have just bought the very same camera and its way less shit than the price would suggest.

 

The seller is lying about their location as it took about 2 weeks to turn up, they ship from China to a UK warehouse so it looks like it was posted domestically, all I can say is if they are really located in Manchester it took an awful long time to get the 30 miles or so over the hill to me.

 

If you're in a rush you can probably get it quicker for more ££.

I've just bought that android camera thing, although I have no use for it whatsoever. I really can't think what I can use it for.

[J-T]

IIRC you should need 9 off 8mmx2mm O rings, 2 off 10mm x 2mm O rings, 1 off 12mm x 2mm O rings, and then 5 off 14mm x 2mm O rings for the delivery valves.

 

I will, however, check very carefully, as I have got a record of which O-rings go where, just not on the computer I'm using at the moment.

 

What you will also need are the delivery valve copper crush washers, but they are pence each from MB.  Last time I needed some they put them in a squiffy bag and posted them to me for about £2 I think.  I've got the part number somewhere for them, so you can just quote it at an MB main stealer.

That would be great, thanks!

[dome]

I had no end of troubles with my c250td. I replaced all the clear pipes which helped, bastard thing still cranked over for ages before it would start after that. Never had bother with my w124 300 or my w210 300 that way. I hated mine, especially coming from a w124. 

 

The fuel heater on the side of the head also causes issues, I bypassed them on mine. 

[lesapandre]

I can say the W124's are amazingly well -built. Just off out in mine. 28 years old but one of the best cars I have owned. 

[J-T]

This little fucker just had another FTP. I nipped the shops in it but ended up parking in a side street. It started up fine from stone cold, drove there fine, I stopped, went into the shop for 2 mins, came back out and it did the same thing as last time - cranked over but wouldnt start, dragging loads of air through the fuel lines despite having 3/4 tank in.

 

Kept trying until the battery was struggling, everyone was out and I was about 4 miles from home so I had to call the RAC again. Only this time it was a 2hr wait in 2 degrees, deep joy!!

 

It was harder to get going this time; after putting another 5l of diesel in (just in case) he ended up having to remove the fuel filter, fill it, give it a few bursts of easy start and eventually it started dragging enough through to cough into life after which it ran perfectly. I did wonder if the fuel guage is lying and it actually keeps running out of fuel so I wazzed round to the petrol station to see how much it would take to brim it. £17 something from 3/4 full which seems right to me.

 

I was hoping to leave replacing all these pipes & seals until it was a bit warmer but looks like I'll be doing it sooner rather than later! Incidentally there are 2 lines entering the fuel filter area and it's these that are always the issue and full of bubbles, so I presume they are the feed.

[J-T]

Ok, managed to get a couple of hours on this today.

 

After reading advice on t'internet and on here, the recommended thing seems to be replacing the 6 clear plastic fuel lines and associated O rings running from the pump & filter, if this doesn't cure it, remove the shut off valve and replace its O ring and if it's still sucking in air, replace the delivery valve seals & washers on the pump. It's recommended that you use viton seals rather than the standard rubber ones. I ordered up the clear fuel lines, manifold gaskets and 2 rubber lines from Merc which relieved me of £100 and ordered some viton 8mmx2mm O rings. However when I compared them to the seals on the clear lines from Merc, 2mm thickness seemed too thin so I just left the standard ones on for now.

 

I didn't take many pics as it was all a bit messy with diesel but the pic below shows why the inlet needs to come off - the filter is bottom right and the pipes go underneath.

 

 

The manifold came off fine and as expected is fairly gummed up. Any suggestions on how to clean that out (it's plastic)? This revealed the rats nest of fuel lines (just realsied the inlet is still on there but you get the idea)

 

 

The clear plastic lines are a push fit into their recess and most were a right bastard to get out as they were mega brittle by now. To remove them, you push in the white plastic hoop (shown below) and pull, however most needed some severe leverage to get them out which resulted in them crumbling.

 

 

I was really struggling to get a couple of them to push into location, I must have spent half an hour at them until I put the old line next to the new and realised that the lower part of the fitting had snapped off inside the recess on the pump. Thankfully I managed to get it out with a small screwdriver.

 

So, I managed to swap all 6 clear lines for new, both black rubber lines (feed & return), replace the main fuel filter and the small prefilter which you can see in the 1st pic with a fuel line coming out of the top just next to the main filter. However, if you look carefully in that pic, you can see that the retaining bolt also holds a metal packing peice which also applies pressure to the clear fuel line to keep it in place. I managed to drop this little piece and it has vanished. I even dropped the undertray to no avail, so it looks like I'll either have to get creative with a large washer and a dremel or see if I can order one from Mercedes. Arses!!

 

With all that done, I decided to give it a go with the manifold off and see if it was still drawing in air. I pre-filled both the fuel filters to try and make it a bit easier on the starter and I had the battery on charge over night. Aaaand it was exactly the same as before. I tried on and off for about 5 mins as obviously it would take a while to prime it all but it just keeps dragging air through.

 

So with that, I deciced to remove the shut off valve to see about swapping this O ring. It's held on by 3 torx bolts. The first one I came to undid fine, then I somehow managed to slip and mangle the fucking bolt AFTER it had cracked off. That's some going even for me. I decided to stop then as I was cold, wet and pissed off.

 

So, I need to have a look at this Shut off valve O ring (if I can get this bolt off) and possibly the delivery valve seals too. However, what's confusing me slightly is that it has a full tank of fuel in it and it's sat on level ground. From what I've read, they only seem to give trouble when they're low on fuel or pointing downhill which mine is neither so could it be the pump that's at fault?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I once bodged a hateful old 525tds E34 with starting issues. I just ran a fused wire direct from the ignition switch to the pump so that it primed everything as soon as the ignition was switched on. It worked like a charm.

[Crispian_J_Hotson]

Urgh... Memories of a sprinter van I 'had a quick look at' and ended up wasting two days on for free. Looked at by various 'mechanics' and 'farmers'... non-start, went off a full filter though... no brakes... no clutch left... rot everywhere... went into hiding to avoid the fella and that awful vehicle. Hopefully he dragged it to the bridge and put it out of its misery.

[Lacquer Peel]

Ok, managed to get a couple of hours on this today.

 

After reading advice on t'internet and on here, the recommended thing seems to be replacing the 6 clear plastic fuel lines and associated O rings running from the pump & filter, if this doesn't cure it, remove the shut off valve and replace its O ring and if it's still sucking in air, replace the delivery valve seals & washers on the pump. It's recommended that you use viton seals rather than the standard rubber ones. I ordered up the clear fuel lines, manifold gaskets and 2 rubber lines from Merc which relieved me of £100 and ordered some viton 8mmx2mm O rings. However when I compared them to the seals on the clear lines from Merc, 2mm thickness seemed too thin so I just left the standard ones on for now.

 

I didn't take many pics as it was all a bit messy with diesel but the pic below shows why the inlet needs to come off - the filter is bottom right and the pipes go underneath.

 

 

The manifold came off fine and as expected is fairly gummed up. Any suggestions on how to clean that out (it's plastic)? This revealed the rats nest of fuel lines (just realsied the inlet is still on there but you get the idea)

 

 

The clear plastic lines are a push fit into their recess and most were a right bastard to get out as they were mega brittle by now. To remove them, you push in the white plastic hoop (shown below) and pull, however most needed some severe leverage to get them out which resulted in them crumbling.

 

 

I was really struggling to get a couple of them to push into location, I must have spent half an hour at them until I put the old line next to the new and realised that the lower part of the fitting had snapped off inside the recess on the pump. Thankfully I managed to get it out with a small screwdriver.

 

So, I managed to swap all 6 clear lines for new, both black rubber lines (feed & return), replace the main fuel filter and the small prefilter which you can see in the 1st pic with a fuel line coming out of the top just next to the main filter. However, if you look carefully in that pic, you can see that the retaining bolt also holds a metal packing peice which also applies pressure to the clear fuel line to keep it in place. I managed to drop this little piece and it has vanished. I even dropped the undertray to no avail, so it looks like I'll either have to get creative with a large washer and a dremel or see if I can order one from Mercedes. Arses!!

 

With all that done, I decided to give it a go with the manifold off and see if it was still drawing in air. I pre-filled both the fuel filters to try and make it a bit easier on the starter and I had the battery on charge over night. Aaaand it was exactly the same as before. I tried on and off for about 5 mins as obviously it would take a while to prime it all but it just keeps dragging air through.

 

So with that, I deciced to remove the shut off valve to see about swapping this O ring. It's held on by 3 torx bolts. The first one I came to undid fine, then I somehow managed to slip and mangle the fucking bolt AFTER it had cracked off. That's some going even for me. I decided to stop then as I was cold, wet and pissed off.

 

So, I need to have a look at this Shut off valve O ring (if I can get this bolt off) and possibly the delivery valve seals too. However, what's confusing me slightly is that it has a full tank of fuel in it and it's sat on level ground. From what I've read, they only seem to give trouble when they're low on fuel or pointing downhill which mine is neither so could it be the pump that's at fault?

Don't think it's the fuel pump, the fuel delivery pipes, O-rings and push fit couplings are such a mess on these cars, if possible I'd put it all in the bin simplify it with regular hoses and clips.

[lesapandre]

Sorry to hear. Just confirmed what I thought that real Merc quality finished with the W124 and these later C and E class are really a bit less good. Seems to be reflected in prices too. 

[BorniteIdentity]

Sorry to hear. Just confirmed what I thought that real Merc quality finished with the W124 and these later C and E class are really a bit less good. Seems to be reflected in prices too. 

 

In rude health, the w202 is superior in every single way to the w201.  People bleat on about rust like a 20 year old car having a few scabs is an assault on the legacy of any car builder.  They all rust, every last fucking one of them.  I had both a Mercedes 190 and Mercedes C180 at the same time, and I laughed at myself for paying £1500 for a 190 when the £500 C Class I already had was a better car by every measure.

 

I know it's subjective, but I just don't buy this horse shit that Mercedes stopped building good, competent cars in 1993.  

 

A good part of the 'increased price' can be explained away by the term 'retro tax'.  Look at anything 25-30 years old - its price is climbing; competent or otherwise.

 

No hard feelings,but in this case - a C250 against a 190 2.5D isn't even a competition.  

[lesapandre]

Yea I have only used 124s . Not been any later. Agreed it probably is my prejudice. 

[J-T]

Sorry to hear. Just confirmed what I thought that real Merc quality finished with the W124 and these later C and E class are really a bit less good. Seems to be reflected in prices too. 

 

I'd say they're just at rock bottom now. Give it 5 years and nice ones will start to climb again like 190s have. Probably just after I sell it.

[Guest 1an316]

On the fuel pumps there is a seal and a copper washer on each line the seals flatten over time and cause this problem, the kit to do them is available but you also need a special socket to remove them  

[J-T]

Aye, I’ve ordered the kit to do them. Although they’re not visibly leaking so I’m not that hopeful

[Guest 1an316]

They never do look like they're leaking from here, I think for some reason they just suck the air in for some reason

[J-T]

Got another hour or so on at this today. It's still not bloody sorted but it's better. I still haven't done the delivery valve seals on the pump because, like a moron, I've inadvertantly ordered the seal kit from America, so it's still not here! Here's a quick recap of what's been replaced:

 

All 6 clear plastic fuel lines & their O rings

Both black rubber feed & return lines & their hose clips

New fuel filter

New pre-filter

 

Today, I managed to remove the stop solenoid on the side of the pump, which also has an O ring. The old one looked fine to me, but I had ordered a new one (12 x 2mm). When I put them side by side, 2mm was too thin but I tried it anyway. When I did this, it started instantly but had fuel pissing out of the stop solenoid. I nipped to Halfords and managed to find a thicker 12mm O ring but this was a bit too thick - I got it fitted but only by drawing it into position via the fixing bolts so it's squished to feck (the correct O ring is included in this kit I've ordered so I'll swap it again when it finally arrives). With all of this done, it is better in that I can actually get it started and running but it's still not right. It tries to start off what's in the filter, then that runs out and it struggles, but keep going with it and it keeps trying and will eventually drag enough fuel through. Once running it's fine. I took some vids to demonstrate (sorry, I'm not clever enough to embed them)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/155679804@N05/39442218475/in/album-72157688008271452/

 

The one above is when I'd just got it running. As you can see, when it's turned off it's letting air back in and the fuel runs back from certain hoses, back into the stop solenoid area.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/155679804@N05/39442360145/in/album-72157688008271452/

 

That one shows it trying to start. You can hear it nearly get going from what's in the filter, then die and have to clear the air out again.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/155679804@N05/40339906811/in/album-72157688008271452/

 

That one shows it running again later, but with a load of air rushing around (which it wasn't doing in the 1st vid)

 

The only things left to do are:

 

Swap the O ring again on the stop solenoid for the correct one out of the kit I've ordered

Do all the delivery valve seals on the pump (high liklihood of me distubing things and breaking it)

The new pre-filter did not come with a new O ring, so could change that (but it looked fine)

Think there is an O ring on the bolt for the main filter, so could change that (looked fine again)

 

I feel like I'm getting somewhere as before I couldn't get it going at all. I'll just have to keep going I guess. Unless there are other suggestions after seeing the vids (I will try and embed them if someone can tell me how).

[J-T]

Right, installment 135 of the most drawn out fucking fuel system overhaul evaaaahhhh (even I'm bored now!)

 

Tuesday-ish, the seal kit came and I got on with the delivery valve seals. Each delvery valve on top of the pump has a rubber O ring and a copper washer to replace and you have to be mega careful not to disturb anything below the copper washer or you're up shit creek. There's a compression spring under each delivery valve so you have to again be mega careful when lifting the valve up that you don't knock it and lose it. Well guess what fucking happened!!!! I was indeed mega careful and on the 3rd valve I lifted it straight up so as not to knock the spring, I lifted it clear of the srping, at which point the spring fell over of its own accord into fucking oblivion. Oh, and I'm doing this on a gravel drive. Have a pic of the spring (you can also see the knackered O ring on the valve)

 

 

I searched for over an hour for the little TWAT and it is gone, it no longer exists. I dropped the undertray, searched all underneath the car & the engine bay but it cannot be found. So I got online and put a search in for bosch delivery valve spring. I managed to find a place called Darwen Diesels who listed them, so I phoned them up and ordered one, thinking they would propbably be the same in each version of pump. That came and it was clearly wrong, it had 9 coils when it should have 12. I got back on their site and found they list two, so I ordered the other one (of which he only had 1 left) which has come today, but it's slightly different, it's wound tighter (see new one below)

 

 

Before that one came, I contacted Merc diesel specialist to see if he could supply any and he could, but he recommends changing all 5 at a cost of £35+VAT & postage. I know that's not mega money but these I bought were literally pence which makes these seem pretty expensive to me.

 

So what would you do? I'm getting pissed off with it now, it's in the way and I really need it to move next week as we're having loads of work done on the house (this week I've been ripping the kitchen out and all plaster downstairs so I'm not over flowing with free time either). Throw this spring in and hope or shell out 40 odd quid and wait again (or does anyone know any other suppliers, it's a bosch pump?)

[alf892]

I've never worked on one of these but....

 

 

Leak off lines can allow air in and gives these symptoms.......and there is also sometimes a non return valve in there that causes same if faulty

[J-T]

Some strong googling has eventually thrown up an MB part number for the spring (didn't even think of this as I just presumed they would only want to sell me a whole injection pump) so I'll ring the stealers tomorrow. Not gonna risk the wrong one.

 

I've also found a Bosch part number with a Bosch centre listing them for £2.49 each (albeit special order only) so my man quoting me £35+VAT can do one.

[Guest]

Spring.A0000743793

 

Seal. A0179974148

 

Washer. A0049974540

 

 

A0000743793 Springinjection Pump

Zoom image

• Details
• Customer-tip

part group R20 weight 0.00 kg

length 3, width 1, height 1cm

your price 3,33 EUR

incl. VAT 19 % excl. Shipping costs

Shipping time: ca. 1-3 Working Days

[Guest]

[Talbot]

Bollocks. I was going to organise a complete set of O-rings for you for this wasn't I. I think several long-ish stays away with work and the general chaos that is my life at the moment conspired to make me completely forget about it.

 

Apologies.

 

 

The O-Ring between the plastic "shut off valve" (it's actually a fuel temperature sensor, the shut-off valve is elsewhere IIRC) and the body of the unit should be a 12x2.5mm ring.

 

There is also another couple of O-Rings that may be causing you issues. There is one where the fuel comes out of the tank, although on a saloon model these are always leak-outs rather than air-inlets.

 

The biggest issue one you may have is the part numbered 26 and it's O-Ring numbered 29 in Barry Cades post above. It is a coarse pre-filter and is O-ringed into the aluminium body of the filter housing, and these leak too. There is *never* anything in it, so you can just bypass it. My OM606 has been bypassed for the past year, with no ill effects.

 

It's quite hard to explain... but you completely remove the pipe that goes from the fuel thermostat to the inlet of this filter, and then use the pipe that would have gone from the outlet of the pre-filter to the injection pump to go straight from the fuel thermostat to the injection pump. You do have to twist the end to make it fit, but it works a treat and completely bypasses the pre-filter, with the associated air leak.

 

I think a picture would help here. Compare this to your arrangement and you'll see what I mean:

 

 

A different angle shows the pipe and the port at the bottom of the pre-filter that the "top" end of the pipe was removed from:

 

 

The pre-filter is now completely redundant. I leave the now-useless pipe attached for amusement when anyone opens the bonnet.. "OMG what is this pipe supposed to be connected to??"

 

 

.. and yes, that re-routed pipe now does get completely in the way when doing the delivery valve seals (you can see from the witness marking on the seal locks I've done mine just recently) but it's easy enough to move out the way.

 

If you are struggling to get a spring for this, contact Dieselmenken. They do some absurd upgrades for these pumps/engines (500hp anyone?!) and generally have parts/bits available.

[DSdriver]

Having a go at stuff like fuel pumps is great if you are not in any hurry and have a suitably clean workshop where, if springs fly in all directions you can readily find them and your only problem is getting the buggers back in the right hole.

I am still of the opinion that the best seventy quid I ever spent was on taking a fuel pump to the Bosch specialist in Maidstone and getting them to sort it. It was done in under an hour and they even had time to slap a coat of paint on the outside.

If I had tried to do the job myself I would probably still be trying to work out how it all goes back together and cursing the fact that although I have stocks of a few thousand Orings in various sizes I never have the size I need for stuff like this or bloody ceramic disc taps.

[Talbot]

Some diesel injection specialists know what they are doing. Others are rip-off merchants.

 

The only "Proper" FTP I have ever had in an XUD-powered car was a 405 TD hunter that I spent £400 (Ouch!) having the Bosch injection pump reconditioned on. I had taken it in for the usual fuel leak through the accelerator lever spindle, and when they got it to bits they advised it needed a shit-tonne of other work. I liked the car a lot, so spent the money.

 

What I got back was the worst pile of shit ever. After re-fitting and timing it to the engine, it was a crap starter, poor economy and lacked any kind of the usual sparkle and grunt that a decent XUD9T should have. (checked the timing several times...) It lasted a few thousand miles and then crapped out completely with metal debris found in the stop solenoid area and in the fuel outlet.. Not good. I then did what I should have done in the first place and just shoved a second-hand somewhat-unknown injection pump on it. Immediately it was a good starter, had the expected economy and felt twice as fast. Transformed the car.

 

I very nearly returned the duff unit to the reconditioner through his window with a note attached telling him to FRO. Given that he probably had the serial number logged with my details, I didn't fancy having the Police knocking on my door, so never did anything about it. Should have done though..

[J-T]

Cheers Talbot, if I'm still having issues when I've sorted the pump seals I'll try bypassing the prefilter - I did actually change the prefilter thinking it would come with a new O ring and it didnt, the tight gets.

 

I've managed to order the correct spring from the dealer, I'm picking it up tomorrow and intend to continue with the misery.

.

[Talbot]

real Merc quality finished with the W124 and these later C and E class are really a bit less good.

Having worked on W124 and now owned and worked on a W210, the W210 is also a better vehicle than the W124 in every way, with the possible exception of the headlamps (both style and performance). My W210 is right on the era when they had issue when moving to water-based paint, and hence corrosion was a bigger issue than it had been.... but it's still a 21 year old car which has only had a bit of welding here and there and has some corrosion in the wheelarches. I'd be willing to bet that *any* 21 year old car that's had as little care and attention paid to it as mine clearly has would have just as much corrosion, if not more.

 

Modern Mercs lack the image that they had 40+ years ago, for sure, but they are still a well-engineered car.

[Talbot]

I did actually change the prefilter thinking it would come with a new O ring and it didnt, the tight gets.

Bingo.

 

 

The moment you disturb that seal you'll *never* get it to seal up again properly.

 

With the engine running, you may even be able to see the inlet to the pre-filter as bubble-free, and then bubbles present in the outlet. Mine was very clear indeed as to which pipes had bubbles in and which don't. The pre-filter is still on the suction side of the lift-pump, and is the highest part of the suction pipework, so is prime candidate for allowing fuel drainback while the engine is off.

[J-T]

Ok, I'm absolutely done with this thing now. Got spring, finished changing delivery valve seals, bypassed pre-filter and it's still sucking in air, seemingly back to square one. It clears a load of air if you continuously crank it for about 20-30secs, gets near to firing, then as soon as you try again it drags a load more air in until the battery is totally dead, even when hooked up to another car on jump leads. If I carry on with it the starter's gonna explode. Or me.

 

It's in the way, I want it gone, I don't have time to continually piss about with it.

 

It has a full tank of diesel, 4 hankook tyres, MOT to June, 112k miles. Currently doesnt start, intake manifold is off.

 

If you would like to punish yourself make me an offer, no matter how stupid. I can't guarantee it will run so will need trailering/framing.  I'm spending no more time or money on it.

[Talbot]

intake manifold is off.

With this one, does it have the "bastard" bolt that you have to access from below, which holds the manifold/EGR unit into the pipe up from the intercooler? (IE do you have to have the car up on ramps/stands to get the manifold on and off again?)

 

If I didn't have a plethora of broken vehicles to sort, or the weather wasn't COCKING COLD, I'd have this off you in a heartbeat.

 

If you were closer, I'd come and fix it for you..

 

Edit.. also, you can run the starter on these for over a minute at a time, with minimal cool-down periods. I've cranked the life out of an OM606 before now, going from fully-charged battery to low-voltage dropout in one go. The starters are ridiculously over-engineered.