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HMC motors- LDVGT V8 Fail list #MOT


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#31 OFFLINE   Bren

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 02:46 PM

Get this: what they are for is to promote swirl.
 
What that means is basically the level of turbulence in the mixture as it enters the combustion chamber, the swirlier it is the better mixed it is which is GR12 for emissions.
 
I presume a man with a big computer does some gas flow analysis and determines the optimum opening size for the inlet to swirl things up a treat (primarily at the points on the emission test cycle lol) and you fit a flap and bingo you pass emissions. 
 
 
Generally people do not report any change in power or drivability from ditching them, but around 0.0001 kittens will die per kilometer driven as a result of the increased CO emissions.


Having the bits gouge grooves in the cylinder wall also results in increased co emissions.
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#32 OFFLINE   SiC

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 03:00 PM

Maybe but given this has a recent MOT, its likely that this has been broken like this for a while. They must have been nommed up by the valves - rather impressive if no damage has been done.
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2010 Aldi A4 - Owned to placate the wife on my crap buying


My history: 2003 Clio II 1.2 16v (First car), 2003 Honda Civic 3dr 1.7 CTDi (Isuzu lump), 1992 Mazda MX5 1.6, 2005 Mazda RX8 192bhp, 2005 Saab 9-3 1.9TiD 150bhp, 2007 Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi, 2004 Renault Scenic 1.6 Auto (Now Kiltox FiL), 2004 Saab 9-5 2.3t (Now Hooli), 2004 Smart Roadster 80bhp
Wife history (that she used/owned but I had frequent use of): 2002 Renault Clio II 1.2 16v (Billabong!), 2006 Mazda MX5 1.8, 2004 VW Golf 1.6 FSI, 2005 Renault Scenic II 2.0 (went bad from the drive back when buying it!), 2002 Vauxhall Astra 1.6 16v (now phil_lihp ex-colleague), 2005 Renault Laguna II v6 (Now angle)

#33 OFFLINE   cpjitservices

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 03:00 PM

if your 2.0 TDCI mondy is running out of breath, check the EGR to Intercooler pipe - they have a tendancy to split and this causes breathlessness. Replace pipe all will be well.

 

TBH, I quite like the power form this engine its plenty quick enough for what it is but there's at least 2 injectors at fault and they aren't cheap, as well as synchro on gear 4 now crunching its tits off. 

 

Going to nurse the one we have until March then replace it.


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#34 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 04:35 PM

If it’s too much of a nail come MOT time, you’ll get a few hundred breaking it. The Cat alone is worth a few bob.

#35 OFFLINE   Heritage motor centre

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 08:47 PM

I binned what was left of the flaps and ( thanks for the tip) filled the redundant holes with araldite. IMG_2504.JPG IMG_2505.JPG

It's all back together and the engine pulls all the way to the red line now; must have been strangled by the partly blocked inlet manifold. Annoyingly one of the inlet manifold to head bolts snapped when I was torquing them up. A test drive and spraying carb cleaner along the joint with the engine running seems to suggest no leak. Would you leave it like that or whip the manifold back off and sort the sheared bolt?
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#36 OFFLINE   MarvinsMom

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 09:00 PM

well, if the engine is running fine, i would leave it as is.


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#37 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 06:03 AM

If it’s running leave it, you might find it only leaks when cold/hot etc. If so whip something round the edge that will seal it but stand high temps. Bit of a bodge but so fuck it’s a £160 Car.

The bolts only need nipping up on the inlet fanimould anyway, the seals at each end should do the sealing if you like.

#38 OFFLINE   Junkman

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 06:41 AM

Does any of you know of, or has seen, a more stupid solution to a problem that actually doesn't exist, than those swirl flaps?

I really knew nothing about them, then came to this thread and saw them the for the first time.

 

I mean, come on, what were they THINKING?

What kind of engineers are being let lose onto the car industry nowadays?

I mean, how can those ocean going protozoons get past the hiring department (says a lot about the HR monekeys)?

Are they teaching that kind of shit at universtities nowadays, or where do such soft headed ideas actually come from?

What kind of management team then approves of such mug's game and greenlights it through to production?

 

God knows what other completely insane nonsense is hidden in something that employs flimsy swirl flaps in the inlet manifold.

Honestly, I can't bring myself towards trusting people who come up with such rubbish.

I guess it's safe to assume that similarly minded geniuses designed the life saving equipment in those cars?

 

It's shit like this that will forever keep me away from newfangled tosh.


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#39 ONLINE   andy18s

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 06:51 AM

Because 15-20 years ago it was a cheap way of increasing the combustion thus lowering emissions/less fuel used
Plus I dare say not many at Ford expected the cars to still be in use after so long......
Built in obsolescence
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#40 OFFLINE   tooSavvy

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 07:15 AM

Proton have some sort of 'movable plastic wedge' in their inlet manifold... Clone of a cleverer FarEast maker, no doubt.

I A F M its called, methinkks CamPro*

Makes the flow/volume more or less re: tps.

https://en.m.wikiped...intake_manifold

For all that.. likely 100% reliable = see off the car ;)


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#41 OFFLINE   Junkman

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 07:18 AM

Because 15-20 years ago it was a cheap way of increasing the combustion thus lowering emissions/less fuel used
Plus I dare say not many at Ford expected the cars to still be in use after so long......
Built in obsolescence

 

Sorry for having to dismiss this outright.

There is no excuse for such tosh whatsoever.


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#42 OFFLINE   SiC

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 07:43 AM

Nothing wrong with swirl valves if designed in correctly. Unfortunately it looks like the penny pinchers in Ford got their way.

The bearings supporting the swirl valves on the 1.9ctdi 16v used by Vauxhall/Saab/Fiat fail however they don't get sucked in as they're mounted vertically. They just fail to move correctly. You can get repair kits that aren't too hard to fit. I fixed mine at the time with numberplate caps and glue.

BMW diesels of the same era had them too and often got sucked in. These interestingly were a different design to the Vauxhall/etc but made by the same company - Pierburg.

Now the swirl valve on my Honda Civic 2.2ctdi is different again. Unlike those above with little flaps for each chamber, Honda decided to put in a separate intake tract and an enormous, single butterfly valve. Being fully metal and beefy, they don't disintegrate.

Very typically Japanese to engineer these things correctly...

(Yes I know the solenoid valve that controls the vacuum can and does fail on the Honda - but unlike the others, it's a 5 minute job to replace. Unlike the others which require many hours to replace the actuator. E.g. the Vauxhall lump requires a good half day - including cambelt, fuel pump, etc)
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Current Fleet:
1974 MGB GT - A stereotypical classic car.
2007 Honda Civic EX CTDi - The reliable runner that is like the family pet.
2010 Aldi A4 - Owned to placate the wife on my crap buying


My history: 2003 Clio II 1.2 16v (First car), 2003 Honda Civic 3dr 1.7 CTDi (Isuzu lump), 1992 Mazda MX5 1.6, 2005 Mazda RX8 192bhp, 2005 Saab 9-3 1.9TiD 150bhp, 2007 Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi, 2004 Renault Scenic 1.6 Auto (Now Kiltox FiL), 2004 Saab 9-5 2.3t (Now Hooli), 2004 Smart Roadster 80bhp
Wife history (that she used/owned but I had frequent use of): 2002 Renault Clio II 1.2 16v (Billabong!), 2006 Mazda MX5 1.8, 2004 VW Golf 1.6 FSI, 2005 Renault Scenic II 2.0 (went bad from the drive back when buying it!), 2002 Vauxhall Astra 1.6 16v (now phil_lihp ex-colleague), 2005 Renault Laguna II v6 (Now angle)

#43 OFFLINE   Rusty Sills

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 07:45 AM

As Andy says, Ford don’t sell 20 year old used cars.
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#44 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:20 AM

I’d doubt very much Ford thought, we’ll put these flaps in so they fail so we can have some bloke over in 10 years time. It was fitted as said before to increase top end torque and lower emissions.

It’s hardly built in obsolescence either as it’s managed 15 years so you can’t complain. Years ago a Cortina wouldn’t have stood a chance of seeing 15 years out. Were the rusty A posts on them or the shagged out camshafts built in obsolescence? No they just wore out like anything else does.
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#45 OFFLINE   Pillock

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 09:43 AM

No, but someone may have thought "hmmm, plastic or metal? How long does a car last?"

And in their steel and glass office, they considered this, and thought "plastic lasts 15 years. That'll be fine"
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#46 OFFLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 10:26 AM

To Ford's credit, the manifold is plastic but the shaft was metal and the flaps plastic. It's not a common fault when you consider how many of these were built.

The M47 BMW solution was just idiotic however. The fact that the 318d/118d cars don't have swirl flaps yet the 320d etc (same 2 litre engine) does have them shows that they're not quite as vital as they're supposed to be. No flaps on the Roewe SeventyFive or pre 2002 BMW's though. Vital.Not.

 

The N47 uses the Ford 'flaps on a skewer' system but like the Ford manifold, the metal wears the plastic eventually.


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#47 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 10:29 AM

I see what you are saying but if they’d made it out of cast iron and engineered everything on the car to last a lifetime it would have been about £50,000. Then everybody would be complaining they couldn’t afford one.
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#48 OFFLINE   Pillock

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 10:35 AM

There's an element of style over substance though.
Most manufacturers facelift their cars much more often than previously. An Escort in 1986 looks much the same as a 1987, 1988 and 1989 one bar trim and specs.
A Focus now has different headlights one year, new rear lights the next, then it'll get a new front bumper after that. There's also less parts sharing... Gone are the days a wing mirror or indicator stalk or door handle was on a whole range of models. This all costs MILLIONS so they have to scrape money back by chipping away at quality where you can't see it.

This is not "all new cars are shit". This is people getting what they want.
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#49 OFFLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 12:39 PM

There's an element of style over substance though.
Most manufacturers facelift their cars much more often than previously. An Escort in 1986 looks much the same as a 1987, 1988 and 1989 one bar trim and specs.
A Focus now has different headlights one year, new rear lights the next, then it'll get a new front bumper after that. There's also less parts sharing... Gone are the days a wing mirror or indicator stalk or door handle was on a whole range of models. This all costs MILLIONS so they have to scrape money back by chipping away at quality where you can't see it.

This is not "all new cars are shit". This is people getting what they want.

 

 

 

It costs less than you think. Much of the componentry comes from China/ Uzbekirectumistan and it costs far, far less to make panel changes now than it did - that's why the likes of Mercedes, BMW etc can make so many different body styles on one platform and still sell a car for less in real terms than they were charging 20 years ago.

 

I went on the Mondeo 3 press launch in November 2000, St Tropez and Toulon. The engineers' aim was to build a car as good as the Passat, then considered the benchmark in medium saloons - I reckon they nailed it. Seeing them all lined up outside the Hotel Byblos (google it) you just couldn't imagine them on the back of a beavertail heading to the bridge, being taxis or battered heaps on an estate.


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#50 OFFLINE   tooSavvy

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:07 PM

^^^^^^

...you just couldn't imagine them on the back of a beavertail heading to the bridge, being taxis or battered heaps on an estate...

Googles 'Carina II' launch brochure... Cries :(


;)



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#51 OFFLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 01:33 PM

.

Attached Images

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#52 OFFLINE   Heritage motor centre

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 03:32 PM

Agreed these deffo had quite a fall from grace and the pez ones especially have been worth fuck all for ages. HML? Says there's still 17,000 2002 mondeos licensed so there's still a lot of fragging to do before they start to become a rare sight.

I can't seem to be trusted with a neglected old car and I've splashed out £20 on a used NSF wing in Neptune green. IT doesn't show too well in the pics but the whole near side has been grazed down the side of something with the front wing taking the worst of it and its fairly mangled. I know it's pointless tinkering basically but it keeps me busy and seems good therapy for me, plus parts are so cheap and plentiful.
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#53 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 04:22 PM

I think they’ve bypassed even the council Estate period, I live on one and the solitary ST220 is outnumbered by the Vectra C’s and the Focus Mk1s.

#54 OFFLINE   Kiltox

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 04:38 PM

Some of those swirl flaps were failing much younger than 15 years though
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#55 ONLINE   cort1977

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 03:16 AM

Can confirm that swirl, pilot injection and many other ways of reducing NOx and particulate emissions are taught in universities.

Engineers will solve whatever problem they are presented with, it's the elected politicians who pass the emission laws. Sadly, the design brief is hardly ever 'build something that will please an obscure corner of the internet in 20 years time'.
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#56 OFFLINE   Sigmund Fraud

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 01:09 PM

Engineers will solve whatever problem they are presented with

 

...and that includes "planned obsolescence" of their designs, as required by marketing departments !



#57 OFFLINE   Heritage motor centre

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 04:01 PM

This old crate is running nicely now, but it does smoke a bit if you cane it. These early duratec 1.8s are known for a large batch of dodgy piston rings. It could be that, or simply 200k of wear and tear, or perhaps some of the valve gear or cylinder wall got a bit damaged by the metal swirl rod fragments? Perhaps I also need to look at the PCV valve? Either way it runs and drives sweetly and I can only assume it would pass its recent emissions test with a bigger margin now the intake manifold isn't partly blocked.
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#58 OFFLINE   r.welfare

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 05:20 PM

Just keep an eye on the oil level and top it up when needed. My old Mazda 2-litre was doing about 200 miles a litre at the end but still sailed the emissions test. I changed the PCV but it made no difference, the oil smoke cloud was worst about 30 seconds after a cold start but only lasted another 30 seconds or so.

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#59 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 06:08 PM

It will almost certainly be the oil control rings. If it’s using oil I’d just sling any old used oil in to keep up with demand. Unless you are prepared to chuck £4-500 at some new rings fitted I’d do this. The 1.8 is prone to this so the chances of finding a used engine worth fitting are very slim. Whilst it’s passing MOTs I’d just keep plugging away.
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#60 OFFLINE   Heritage motor centre

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 07:52 PM

I'm at it again afraid! My aspergic need to have a series of a certain type of vehicle means this st220 has now joined the fleet. Minty fresh in contrast to the ropey lx estate...IMG_2582.JPG
Verdict- it's fun and makes a great noise whilst being so.
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