Renault 6 rescue (Aug 2020 - rehomed)

[Talbot]

I have to say, I suspect very much that this engine is beyond salvage. It's probably useful for external brackets and bits and bobs to be trasferred over to another bare engine, but the internals are biggered. If there's even a tenth of the corrosion on the crank as there is in the head, the that will be scrap.

 

I'd still pull it to bits though, just for post-mortem interest.

[alf892]

I have to say, I suspect very much that this engine is beyond salvage. It's probably useful for external brackets and bits and bobs to be trasferred over to another bare engine, but the internals are biggered. If there's even a tenth of the corrosion on the crank as there is in the head, the that will be scrap.I'd still pull it to bits though, just for post-mortem interest.

Pessimist! Nothing wrong with the head (yet!) ........a lot of what you can see will clean off.

[Slowsilver]

Whilst I really, really, really want this little car to live, I can’t help but feel that you’re pissing into the wind with that engine and box. To be fair, I’d be fairly confident the box is already rogered after your attempted bump starting with a seized engine, and as for the engine itself...

I’m not trying to be twattish about it - I just think it seems a bit like intentionally smashing your thumb with a hammer multiple times, even though the first injury should have been a big clue as to change tactics.

 

I am afraid you are missing the point. If I wanted it back on the road in a hurry, I would pay someone to fix it for me. This is a hobby and the journey is more important to me than the destination. I agree that a forensic stripdown of an almost certainly knackered engine and probably gearbox may be seen as counter-productive but it is all part of the enjoyment*. Despite my multiple (mostly tongue in cheek) moanings, the more difficult the job is the more I learn and the more satisfaction I get from overcoming the obstacles. I have no deadline to meet and do not actually need the car. Indeed, I may never get it back on the road, but that doesn't matter. It would be the ideal outcome eventually, but if / when I get terminally fed up with it I will just sack it off, hopefully to someone on here who has the expertise and patience to fix it properly.

Besides, doesn't your last paragraph sum up the Autoshite philosophy:

"intentionally smashing your thumb with a hammer multiple times, even though the first injury should have been a big clue as to change tactics."

If this were the case anyone of sound mind (which we all clearly are not) would get rid of all their old chod, buy a bland eurobox on PCP and let someone else fix it for them.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

.....Indeed, I may never get it back on the road, but that doesn't matter. It would be the ideal outcome eventually, but if / when I get terminally fed up with it I will just sack it off, hopefully to someone on here who has the expertise and patience to fix it properly.

Besides, doesn't your last paragraph sum up the Autoshite philosophy:

"intentionally smashing your thumb with a hammer multiple times, even though the first injury should have been a big clue as to change tactics."....

[Dick Longbridge]

I am afraid you are missing the point. If I wanted it back on the road in a hurry, I would pay someone to fix it for me. This is a hobby and the journey is more important to me than the destination. I agree that a forensic stripdown of an almost certainly knackered engine and probably gearbox may be seen as counter-productive but it is all part of the enjoyment*. Despite my multiple (mostly tongue in cheek) moanings, the more difficult the job is the more I learn and the more satisfaction I get from overcoming the obstacles. I have no deadline to meet and do not actually need the car. Indeed, I may never get it back on the road, but that doesn't matter. It would be the ideal outcome eventually, but if / when I get terminally fed up with it I will just sack it off, hopefully to someone on here who has the expertise and patience to fix it properly.

Besides, doesn't your last paragraph sum up the Autoshite philosophy:

"intentionally smashing your thumb with a hammer multiple times, even though the first injury should have been a big clue as to change tactics."

If this were the case anyone of sound mind (which we all clearly are not) would get rid of all their old chod, buy a bland eurobox on PCP and let someone else fix it for them.

Maybe I did miss the point. I just got the impression that whenever you try and work on the car, it gets on your nerves to the point that you shove it back into the garage and leave it for a bit. It wasn't apparent that your grumbling about it was mainly jest, nor that you're only taking the motor apart out of curiosity. I assumed you actually wanted to fix it, which, as I previously suggested, is likely to be a massive world of woe.

 

As for autoshite philosophy, you've missed the point yourself. I'm very much of the 'look after it, and try and fix it when it's broken' school of thought. However, if the wife had a dresser with a mirror which I'd smashed into a thousand pieces, but which was a reasonably straightforward item to source a replacement for, I'd buy a replacement mirror. She could still then use the dresser unit. I wouldn't create three years of pain repairing a buggered mirror, when there's a respectable, better solution, and which would still enable the end product to be used and enjoyed as intended.

[wuvvum]

I think we've established though that good 845cc Renault engines don't exactly grow on trees.

[Slowsilver]

Next thrilling* episode as promised.

 

Obvious bolt now removed.

More hammering to no avail.

On to plan B:

 

 

Attach piece of dexion angle to rocker cover bolts, apply engine hoist and raise front of car about 6 inches. One good clout with the copper hammer and the head parts company with the block. Cannot remove pushrods without removing seized rockers but after much fiddling managed to lift them enough to rotate the head clear of the bulkhead and lift it off.

 

What horrors lie beneath. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen.

 

 

 

 

In the words of that there Cilla Black: "Surprise, surprise".

All the nay-sayers that predicted it would only be fit for scrap turn out to be wrong.

 

Pistons and bores look in good conditon with no sign of water ingress.

Tops of pistons a bit coked up as expected but bores not scored and only a very slight ridge at the top of each liner, just about detectable with a fingernail.

Valves all look reasonable and head gasket looks intact and shows no obvious signs of OMGHGF.

Tappets look suitably well-oiled.

Lots of crap in all the waterways though.

 

I previously harboured a (now maybe not so) vain hope that the problem might have just been a blocked oil feed to the rocker shaft and the rest of the engine might be salvageable. This was the main reason for persevering with removing the head rather than taking out the entire engine, which no doubt would present a whole new set of problems to overcome.

 

So what next?

I guess I now need to try turning the engine over again with the head off.

Now the water pump is also out of the way I can hopefully remove the camshaft pulley and maybe bolt on a piece of bar to give some leverage.

But first I need to try and concoct a way of clamping the cylinder liners down.

If it still won't turn then maybe the next thing will be to drop the sump and check the bottom end.

 

Who knows what other delights / horrors are waiting to be found.

 

Hopefully more to come eventually.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

So only a head needed so far. That's a start.

[wuvvum]

But first I need to try and concoct a way of clamping the cylinder liners down.

What you need is Liner Retaining Clamps part no. Mot 12.

[somewhatfoolish]

 

But first I need to try and concoct a way of clamping the cylinder liners down.

If it still won't turn then maybe the next thing will be to drop the sump and check the bottom end.

If only you had a thing that's like a cylinder head...

[DodgeRover]

Big washers and lots of nuts on the head studs could be used to clamp the liners down.

[Slowsilver]

What you need is Liner Retaining Clamps part no. Mot 12.

 

Available off the shelf from your local Renault dealer. NO CHANCE ! Or anywhere else in the known universe for that matter.

 

 

If only you had a thing that's like a cylinder head...

 

Only after I've (not) managed to remove the rocker arms, shaft and valves. Even then I'd really like to be able to still access the pistons to smack them with a hammer if necessary.

 

 

Big washers and lots of nuts on the head studs could be used to clamp the liners down.

 

That's plan A.

[wuvvum]

Available off the shelf from your local Renault dealer. NO CHANCE ! Or anywhere else in the known universe for that matter.

You can borrow one off the Renault Owners' Club of Canberra, apparently.

 

http://www.rcca.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Rocc-News-August-314-2014.pdf

[Mrs6C]

Top job!

 

Looking back at the photos of the rockers, they don't look that bad. Now you have the head off, could you now upend it and immerse the whole rocker mechanism in a container of diesel for a week, to get everything lubricated, then work at the rocker parts with a brass wire brush, flat bladed screwdriver etc. to get them cleaned up and persuade them to start moving again? IIR Joloke has had success with soaking rusty parts in vinegar and I'm advised that strong tea (with no milk nor sugar!) is also a good cleaning fluid for corroded metal...

 

On the basis that you have nothing to lose, you might be able to get it all working again.

[Parky]

Some sort of steel bar bolted across the top of the engine to stop the liners moving would work.

 

Otherwise, lubricate the heck out of everything, remove the pushrods, and bolt the head back on as that should stop the liners moving while you turn the bottom end over. Don’t be tempted to turn the engine over without something holding those liners in place as that would pretty much mean game over for the engine.

 

Mrs6c is right about the vinegar - https://sciencebob.com/clean-pennies-with-vinegar/ so it might work with larger components. Apparently molasses and water work well too but only if you have a couple of weeks or more

 

https://www.todayshomeowner.com/video/how-to-remove-rust-using-molasses/

[alf892]

Bearing in mind it would be sensible to change the liner seals anyway (and check liner heights) I'd be thinking about taking the liners out complete with the pistons. You can then hammer or press the pistoms out. Today this drop the sump and just undo the big ends.

 

If you need a press drop over to me

[Slowsilver]

You can borrow one off the Renault Owners' Club of Canberra, apparently.

 

http://www.rcca.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Rocc-News-August-314-2014.pdf

 

But Canberra isn't in my known universe.

 

Top job!

 

Looking back at the photos of the rockers, they don't look that bad. Now you have the head off, could you now upend it and immerse the whole rocker mechanism in a container of diesel for a week, to get everything lubricated, then work at the rocker parts with a brass wire brush, flat bladed screwdriver etc. to get them cleaned up and persuade them to start moving again? IIR Joloke has had success with soaking rusty parts in vinegar and I'm advised that strong tea (with no milk nor sugar!) is also a good cleaning fluid for corroded metal...

 

On the basis that you have nothing to lose, you might be able to get it all working again.

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

I wonder which is cheaper and most effective, a gallon of red diesel, a gallon of vinegar, or a gallon of strong tea.

 

Bearing in mind it would be sensible to change the liner seals anyway (and check liner heights) I'd be thinking about taking the liners out complete with the pistons. You can then hammer or press the pistoms out. Today this drop the sump and just undo the big ends.

 

If you need a press drop over to me

 

Never worked on an engine with liners before.

How do you get them out?

I bet it's not easy, especially on this b****y thing.

Do they bash out from the bottom after the sump has been removed?

And I bet new liner seals are going to be pretty much unobtainium.

 

Edit: Ebay search shows 2 different types available for Renault 4 (same engine) for about £15 a set including postage.

Doesn't say what capacity engine they fit but they are different diameters so I assume that the smaller ones will fit the 845cc and the larger ones the 1108cc. Anyone know for sure?

[Parky]

I think for the money I would buy both just to be sure.

 

As a further alternative cleaner, cheap cola has its uses - not the diet variety though. 5litres of own brand coke will almost certainly be cheaper than a gallon of diesel.

 

Otherwise a potato. Apparently if you cut the potato in half, dab it in dishwash detergent, you can then use it like a scouring pad. The Oxalic acid in the potato apparently removes rust and as it gets dirty, slice a bit off and voila, clean potato.

 

No idea which varieties work best but that could be a fun Autoshite tutorial

[alf892]

Liners ill come out the top.....so unbolt big end at crank and take the bearing shell out of the con rod and use a piece of wood to tap up. Not likely to be tight.

 

Not sure how liners are sealed in these as never done one. Usual is just a gasket paper seal so pretty easy to cut out yourself. Thickness very important though and sometimes (I know you too on nasty little Talbot) you get/can buy different thicknesses. Bit of a lost art like getting rope seals right! Doing the job is easier than writing it.

 

Brick cleaner would clean those rockers up/dissolve the head......then finish with wire brush on bench grinder

[Parky]

As the head is alloy, some sort of alloy wheel cleaner like Wonder Wheels should be ok too. If you have any lying about you could try that?

[jonathan_dyane]

My vote would be for diesel

[doubleyeller]

Copart have got this one in at the moment..... http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_153708311401213&key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&libId=jm4jjaae010004m6000MA72co63xl&loc=http%3A%2F%2Frenaultccc.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F4121%2Frenault-6-lhd-forsale-copart&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.copart.co.uk%2Flot%2F41489438&ref=http%3A%2F%2Frenaultccc.proboards.com%2Fboard%2F8%2Fcars-sale&title=Renault%206%20LHD-ForSale-%20Copart%20%7C%20Renault%20Classic%20Car%20Club%20Forum&txt=www.copart.co.uk%2Flot%2F41489438

[quicksilver]

Copart have got this one in at the moment..... http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_153708311401213&key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&libId=jm4jjaae010004m6000MA72co63xl&loc=http%3A%2F%2Frenaultccc.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F4121%2Frenault-6-lhd-forsale-copart&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.copart.co.uk%2Flot%2F41489438&ref=http%3A%2F%2Frenaultccc.proboards.com%2Fboard%2F8%2Fcars-sale&title=Renault%206%20LHD-ForSale-%20Copart%20%7C%20Renault%20Classic%20Car%20Club%20Forum&txt=www.copart.co.uk%2Flot%2F41489438

Interesting, thanks for sharing. The ad is a bit light on detail and unless it's had a front end rebuild it isn't a 1970 model. I doubt it's worth anywhere near £3k.

[Jifflemon]

But Canberra isn't in my known universe.

 

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

I wonder which is cheaper and most effective, a gallon of red diesel, a gallon of vinegar, or a gallon of strong tea.

 

 

Never worked on an engine with liners before.

How do you get them out?

I bet it's not easy, especially on this b****y thing.

Do they bash out from the bottom after the sump has been removed?

And I bet new liner seals are going to be pretty much unobtainium.

 

Edit: Ebay search shows 2 different types available for Renault 4 (same engine) for about £15 a set including postage.

Doesn't say what capacity engine they fit but they are different diameters so I assume that the smaller ones will fit the 845cc and the larger ones the 1108cc. Anyone know for sure?

 

I'd honestly say leave the liners well alone. Clamp them down, lube up the bores and see if it'll turn over.

[Slowsilver]

I'd honestly say leave the liners well alone. Clamp them down, lube up the bores and see if it'll turn over.

 

That is certainly going to be plan A.

[Jifflemon]

Plan A is good!

 

Although I'd have whipped the whole thing out. Back in my Youth we did my Renault 5 with nothing more than a scaffold tube and some rope. Admittedly there was much hilarity* when we looped the rope around the antiroll bar instead of the sump....

[sheffcortinacentre]

Would the following be of any interest all new pattern parts

 

Clutch pressure plt & friction plt,

Dizzy cap,points,rotor arm,

Water pump,stat,

Rocker cover gasket x2,

Head gasket x2,

Headset x1,

Poss odd other bits.

 

£30 the lot Inc p&p

[Slowsilver]

Would the following be of any interest all new pattern parts

 

Clutch pressure plt & friction plt,

Dizzy cap,points,rotor arm,

Water pump,stat,

Rocker cover gasket x2,

Head gasket x2,

Headset x1,

Poss odd other bits.

 

£30 the lot Inc p&p

 

Certainly would be interested provided of course that they are for the early 845cc engine and not the later 1108cc lump.

[Slowsilver]

Some progress - then stalled again

Some of the later content of this thread seems to have gone missing, as I am sure I posted pictures of the cylinder head, pistons and bores showing them to be in good condition and not rusty.

Anyhow, after about 6 months of too cold/too hot/ill health/house decorating/ general CBA I finally got round to doing some more to this thing.
Neither the HBOL nor the Autobo11oks manuals mention removing the front panel to make engine removal easier, but explain how later on in the bodywork section.
Due to the terrible accessibility of some stuff I decided to give this a try.
8 nuts and bolts - 3 came undone eventually, 4 snapped, 1 rounded off and had to be drilled out.
8 captive nuts - 5 came undone under protest, 1 broke, 3 became suddenly uncaptive and had to be drilled out.
But after much faffing the front of the car now looks like this:

There is now more of the front of the car in the back of the car than on the front.
Accessibilty is massively improved and the radiator and clutch cable were removed in short order.
Note the length of dexion angle, two lengths of copper pipe and two head bolts acting as a (very) makeshift clamp for the cylinder liners.
Now on to driveshaft removal. On these early Renaults the driveshafts are fixed to the diff output shafts by two concentric roll pins, a 5mm diameter one with a 3mm diameter one inside it. There used to be a Renault special tool to remove these, which I think is basically a stepped parallel punch, starting at 3mm for half the roll pin length then 5mm for the full length, but of course these are unobtanium.
You can hopefully see how accessible* these are here:

I have a 3mm and a 5mm parallel punch in my set, so set to with these. After much swearing and bashing with a large hammer the driver's side ones relented and came out. Flushed with success I moved on to the passenger side. The same procedure simply resulted in a bent 3mm punch. Frustrated by this I ordered a shorter, supposedly hardened and tempered one. It broke!

I am now at a loss as to what to do next. Normally if I fail I can come up with a plan B, but not in this case.
I suppose ideally I should try and get the end of a 5mm punch turned down to 3mm, but since they are (hopefully) hardened this would need to be done on a lathe using a grinding wheel. I don't know of anyone who could do this.
I can't even drill them out, not even enough to locate the end of a punch properly, as they are hardened spring steel.
Due to the amount of metal and proximity to flammable stuff I think heat is not an answer.

I really feel now that this is time for a parting of the ways. After all the grief this thing has given me I am beginning to resent its prescence and think it may be time to move it on to someone with more skill, patience and determination than I have left. Unless someone can suggest an alternative way to remove these pins, that is.

[Mrs6C]

Huzzah!!!

When's the "For Garage of Dreams' sake" event to apply the AS massive to this challenge?