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It'll never be a classic...


RichardK

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Mk 1 Espace should absolutely be a classic. Low survival rate, technically interesting, moved the entire automotive game forward, stylistically accomplished (arguably technically so, too), and instantly recognisable.

 

I'd love a Mk 1 Espace. Can't find any in a condition that I'd feel confident in bringing back to the standard I'd want though.

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This is especially relaxant to me at the moment.

I have a 2000 Mercedes 230CLK, which was MrsN's 40th birthday present, she just turned 50, the CLK hasn't been on the road for 3 years.

I've been given an ultimatum sort it or get fix of it.

It needs front wings and a complete respray at the very least, an engine ecu and loom as well . So about £3/4000. Value at the moment ? 2 owners, 80k miles perfect hood and interior, £500???

 

I know it will never be worth as much as aW124 cabrio, but they were £5000 for a nice one 5 years ago, they're double that now. The irony is 10 years ago the best 124 available would have saved me £5000 on what I spent on the CLK, but Mrs thought they were too old fashioned.

 

I'd like ro think if I do sort it out and look after it for the next 5 years it will at least be worth what I'd have spent.

post-17414-0-30157100-1500983073_thumb.jpeg

5 years ago.

post-17414-0-17839700-1500983278_thumb.jpeg

5 minutes ago.

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There's another problem with older cars ^  If you leave a job because of having to justify the cost-versus-return, you generally find you're stuck with a car you can never justify investing in the repair of.  That in turn gives you a car that's difficult to sell on because nobody else wants to fork out to get it fixed for the same reason.  The job will probably cost just as much now as it would have five years ago, the only difference is the car's financial value has dropped.  It's sentimental value has probably done the inverse.  If you like it and can't afford to replace it with something better, then fix it.  Might take a while to get the funds together, but sod the return you might get further down the line in the future.  If anyone sits down with all their receipts and looks at what they've invested in a car they quickly find they've lost money whether it's a £100 banger or a £10,000 classic.

 

Stop worrying about the financial return and fix the car if you like it (and can afford to, obviously) or sell it on and take the loss on the chin.  Also, never be afraid to compromise on cosmetics.  A working car you can drive and enjoy is worth far more than a buggered one with lovely paint.

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There's another problem with older cars ^  If you leave a job because of having to justify the cost-versus-return, you generally find you're stuck with a car you can never justify investing in the repair of.  That in turn gives you a car that's difficult to sell on because nobody else wants to fork out to get it fixed for the same reason.  The job will probably cost just as much now as it would have five years ago, the only difference is the car's financial value has dropped.  It's sentimental value has probably done the inverse.  If you like it and can't afford to replace it with something better, then fix it.  Might take a while to get the funds together, but sod the return you might get further down the line in the future.  If anyone sits down with all their receipts and looks at what they've invested in a car they quickly find they've lost money whether it's a £100 banger or a £10,000 classic.

 

Stop worrying about the financial return and fix the car if you like it (and can afford to, obviously) or sell it on and take the loss on the chin.  Also, never be afraid to compromise on cosmetics.  A working car you can drive and enjoy is worth far more than a buggered one with lovely paint.

If only it was that simple, We're currently looking to replace MrsN's everyday car and one option is that she gets some sort of cabriolet ( probably a 3 Series, because of folding hardtop) this would logically make the CLK redundant. Stupidly, I'm railing against this idea because of sentimental reasons.( That ,and because it's useful to have a backup if my car breaks down)

And I'm going to have to disagree about the compromise on cosmetics, when you drive a Dog Dick Red Mercedes Cabriolet, it HAS to look good, it's only done about 12,000 miles since we've owned it so as long as it can pull itself along a country lane to a pub half a dozen times a year the mechanical condition is not that key.

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Does there come a point where all the current classics drop in value, as less people exist who want one for nostalgic reasons? I can't see my kids having any interest in a capri or cosworth for example.

 

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In real terms, probably yes.   Stuff never just seems to come back down, though!  

 

I think the market today is confounded by the apparent worthlessness of money - little return on it unless you buy something appreciating.

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I got trashed* on FB for stating I reckoned the early (shall we say Mk1?) Mercedes A-Class is worthy contender to see rolling up at future shows.

 

My reasoning:

Short wheelbase so easy to keep

Quirky styling like a modern day Anglia

Everyone's Mum had one

The Benz badge

 

Though the fall-out* has made me reconsider my thoughts.

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I got trashed* on FB for stating I reckoned the early (shall we say Mk1?) Mercedes A-Class is worthy contender to see rolling up at future shows.

 

My reasoning:

Short wheelbase so easy to keep

Quirky styling like a modern day Anglia

Everyone's Mum had one

The Benz badge

 

Though the fall-out* has made me reconsider my thoughts.

Tbh I'd agree, but maybe in a decade or so because they are still doing their "scummy" phase - see also e36 bmw which I think has started its recovery.

 

The original Audi A1 IMO is a better bet as they are more of a rarity

 

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Who buys OE parts for 15 year old cars though? I bought a new engine mount for the Focus last week of fleabay, I'd doubt a new one would be available at Ford.

Not sure if serious, but I do. Obviously not from the dealer but from sellers that offer OE brands. I do not plan to get rid of the cars I own, so I wouldn't dream of buying cheap crap that I know I will need replace sooner than the parts that have been in the car for 15 years.

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Regarding whats a classic or not:

 

Anything can be a classic as long as it has one unique selling point, or something that made them stand out for their time, or makes them desirable now. Saying that something from a certain era cannot be a classic is absolutely ridiculous, as that entirely depends on who you ask. There is a reason why 80's Ford are now becoming sought after vehicles here in the UK (because they were popular back in the day, people had them in their youth (Fiestas XR2s) or as posters on their walls (Cosworth Sierras). I guess in these two particular cases you could also say that there is a bit of national pride for them in the UK as well (as inaccurate as that might be, considering most Fords of the last decades arent British), that at least would explain why sportier Fords (excluding the Cosworth halo cars) actually have somewhat of a value here, in contrast to Germany where they are mostly overlooked. The same goes for cars like the Vauxhall Astra or Cavalier.

 

Then, as mentioned above, there are cars that were just plainly standing out because of their achievements for the time. There are the obvious ones (exotics), but there are also less obvious cars that benefit from this. Take the E39 for example, seen by many as one of the best BMWs ever built (certainly the best 5-series). Sold in the hundreds of thousands, yet perceived by many as more desirable than any of its contemporary counterparts. Obviously this desirability starts with the M5, no explanation needed, but is also now trickling down to cars like the 6-speed 540i, and will continue you do do so for the 530i and 528i in manual form, especially as rarer sport or touring variants. They are seen as future classics because of their unique combination of qualities for the time(performance, design, driving pleasure, relatively easy to maintain), something that no other luxury sports sedan could achieve back in the day, or after it (because more complex systems->poorer reliability and higher maintenance costs; significantly higher weight). It doesn't have to be a super car, neither does it have to be particularly rare when it was produced. It just needs to have a special place within its segment or space in the manufacturer's heritage to find enough followers to be considered a classic.

 

And there are many more "everyday" vehicles that fulfill these requirements, yet it is shocking to see how few people actually have the foresight to identify them. Which is especially bad here in the UK because of generally low used car values, often resulting in cars being broken instead of preserved because of minor issues. Normally you'd think that I do not have to explain to anyone that an Audi S8 will be a classic in a not so distant future. Yet I see a lot of people breaking them to make a quick buck. Yes, it helps increasing their rarity. It doesn't mean that it is a wise thing to do so. I don't really see these people as enthusiasts as they obviously care more about making money than maintaining a healthy population of a something that will become more desirable, its just a shame that not more people think this way.

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This is especially relaxant to me at the moment.

I have a 2000 Mercedes 230CLK, which was MrsN's 40th birthday present, she just turned 50, the CLK hasn't been on the road for 3 years.

I've been given an ultimatum sort it or get fix of it.

It needs front wings and a complete respray at the very least, an engine ecu and loom as well . So about £3/4000. Value at the moment ? 2 owners, 80k miles perfect hood and interior, £500???

 

I know it will never be worth as much as aW124 cabrio, but they were £5000 for a nice one 5 years ago, they're double that now. The irony is 10 years ago the best 124 available would have saved me £5000 on what I spent on the CLK, but Mrs thought they were too old fashioned.

 

I'd like ro think if I do sort it out and look after it for the next 5 years it will at least be worth what I'd have spent.

attachicon.gifimage.jpeg

5 years ago.

attachicon.gifimage.jpeg

5 minutes ago.

The problem of the CLK is that there are too many well known downsides without having many upsides compared to similar cars, especially one with a fairly basic engine. Not only is it not a "classic" modern Mercedes (classic 80s boxy design, known for exceptional money-doesnt-matter engineering and bulletproof reliability, as inaccurate as these might be in some cases), it isn't an outstandingly well performing car either. There will also be very few people who will see much of a merit in its design (not unusual/revolutionary enough to stand out, not traditional enough to be seen as part of a long heritage either). Then there are the known worse than average quality issues like rust, caused by excessive cost cutting compared to its predecessor, something nobody will develop fond memories off. I can imagine that CLK55 AMGs will be classics at one point, but thats because they belong to AMGs heritage of performance, not because any qualities that a CLK would bring to the table. The red paint/black interior does help. But it will be a very long time before this particular model does rise in value in any significant way. You'll definitely not gonna earn any money by keeping it.

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I'd love a mk1 or 2 Escort, but I'd want a normal one. An original mk1 1300 2 door, still complete with those lovely little wheel trims they used to have would do me.

They're good little cars, even in base form, if you accept them for what they are. The vast majority of them were just daily transport for the masses. But that to me makes them iconic and a little piece of the past for normal people.

 

 

 

But would you pay five or six grand for a drum brake 1100 Escort? I'm fucked if I would. There were so many better cars - the 1220 Citroen GS was just in a different stratosphere. Now that is a classic. All that engineering in a small, inexpensive car.

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I think the difficulty with this discussion is that we naturally try to classify types of car or periods, or a combination of both. In fact, we should be classifying types of owner. Bluejeans, me and others on here wouldn't pay £6k for a boggo Escort because I reckon most Shiters appreciate function* over form.

Then there's your design types, who have helped fuel an already burgeoning E-Type market, by classing that design as official artwork. This is the way early Range Rovers are going, and, to my mind, the way Beetles have always been, for example.

Nostalgia types aren't necessarily true petrolheads, but rush out every four years in the Summer and spunk dough on cars they remember from their halcyon youth.

Things like Ranchos stay obscure and relatively good value because they're (unjustly) forgotten about as the forerunner of the soft roader segment, and not enough people ever had contact with them, to be nostalgic.

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Not sure if serious, but I do. Obviously not from the dealer but from sellers that offer OE brands. I do not plan to get rid of the cars I own, so I wouldn't dream of buying cheap crap that I know I will need replace sooner than the parts that have been in the car for 15 years.

If you had a 53 plate Focus faced with the dilemma of choosing between a £23 engine mount or a £125 Ford one what would you do? If it was a few quid between them I'd have the Ford one but it isn't.

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Regarding the CLK, I personally think that

 

This is especially relaxant to me at the moment.
I have a 2000 Mercedes 230CLK, which was MrsN's 40th birthday present, she just turned 50, the CLK hasn't been on the road for 3 years.
I've been given an ultimatum sort it or get fix of it.
It needs front wings and a complete respray at the very least, an engine ecu and loom as well . So about £3/4000. Value at the moment ? 2 owners, 80k miles perfect hood and interior, £500???

I know it will never be worth as much as aW124 cabrio, but they were £5000 for a nice one 5 years ago, they're double that now. The irony is 10 years ago the best 124 available would have saved me £5000 on what I spent on the CLK, but Mrs thought they were too old fashioned.

I'd like ro think if I do sort it out and look after it for the next 5 years it will at least be worth what I'd have spent.
attachicon.gifimage.jpeg
5 years ago.
attachicon.gifimage.jpeg
5 minutes ago.

 

Slightly OT, But, I want to offer my 2 bobs worth regarding the W208 Mercedes CLK. I personally do think that certain W208 CLK'S will rise in value in future, Genuine AMG 55's certainly will. However, I believe that the Convertible W208 CLK's will also climb in value in the next 5-10 years or so. They are fine looking & driving cars IMO. 

 

I still have not got round to sorting my 2001 CLK 430 yet, However, I am closer to getting it the attention it needs. I will not part with it, because, It is a Mercedes V8 & I love the sound & grunt of it. Once I do get it all sorted out, I believe It will be a future classic, Rough one's can be picked up cheap at the moment, but look at clean(ish), decent ones.... They still command quite a premium at the moment.

 

This for example...It still has 6 day's to go, had 19 bid's already..& it's 17 years old now.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-CLK-430-V8-convertable-/332314574081?hash=item4d5f7dfd01:g:mOIAAOSw5gFZc1PT

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

or, the immaculate end of the spectrum..

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2000-Mercedes-430-CLK-AMG-Avantgarde-Cab-Auto-61k-Full-MB-MBSH-SWAP-or-PX-/302365507163?hash=item4666637e5b:g:vpMAAOSwcgNZKGcO

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

I definitely think these (AMG,s, 430's & The Convertibles) will increase in value in future. I am not saying this to cause an argument or anything, Just my opinion.

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Does there come a point where all the current classics drop in value, as less people exist who want one for nostalgic reasons? I can't see my kids having any interest in a capri or cosworth for example.

 

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Very interesting point.

 

I browsed the classifieds in PC today and Sierras, Minis,Beetles and Minors were all £6k upwards. Then there was this 1950s Humber Hawk for only 3.5k. Made me think.

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Any modern 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 Series BMW.

 

*drops mic over-dramatically*

 

*flounces in irrationally-fuelled anger*

 

 

 

 

 

I am obviously not saying they are bad cars, millions of people and countless reviewers cannot be wrong. But I cannot foresee any of them becoming treasured classics they way the 635CSI or the 2002 are...

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But would you pay five or six grand for a drum brake 1100 Escort? I'm fucked if I would. There were so many better cars - the 1220 Citroen GS was just in a different stratosphere. Now that is a classic. All that engineering in a small, inexpensive car.

£5k or £6k for a drum braked Escort 1100? Yes I would, if I wanted one enough. Would I spend that same figure on a GS? No fucking chance!

 

It's horses for courses! I don't like French cars really, I don't get the ugly styling, I don't think they're very good cars and I can't relate to them. It makes no difference how good the GS might or might not be I'd have the Escort every time because I like them and I can relate to them.

Of course that doesn't mean I think an Escort is worth that sort of money but sadly we are where we are with prices sadly.

My Capri 1600 L owes me more than £6k so far and it's not even painted yet! Worth it? Who cares!

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Does there come a point where all the current classics drop in value, as less people exist who want one for nostalgic reasons? I can't see my kids having any interest in a capri or cosworth for example.

 

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

 

That's the wrong approach.

 

How rare something is and who is interested in it is entirely irrelevant.

What matters is what whoever is interested is willing to pay for it.

Hence prices (let alone values) only drop if less money is being paid.

And that's not likely to happen.

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£5k or £6k for a drum braked Escort 1100? Yes I would, if I wanted one enough. Would I spend that same figure on a GS? No fucking chance!

 

It's horses for courses! I don't like French cars really, I don't get the ugly styling, I don't think they're very good cars and I can't relate to them. It makes no difference how good the GS might or might not be I'd have the Escort every time because I like them and I can relate to them.

Of course that doesn't mean I think an Escort is worth that sort of money but sadly we are where we are with prices sadly.

My Capri 1600 L owes me more than £6k so far and it's not even painted yet! Worth it? Who cares!

I love French cars and they are actually quite good, unless they have that stupid overhyped hydraulics bollox,

in which case they are death traps and should be avoided like the clap.

You can slag those Germans as much as you want, but if they'd have built Citroens, they would actually work.

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That's the wrong approach.

 

How rare something is and who is interested in it is entirely irrelevant.

What matters is what whoever is interested is willing to pay for it.

Hence prices (let alone values) only drop if less money is being paid.

And that's not likely to happen.

In time though there will be less people interested in certain models.

 

But I guess that's balanced out by supply dwindling as well, so as the size of the market drops so too does the stock of available cars and values stay stable, or maybe even go up as only the decent examples remain.

 

And I guess just because I don't see why someone would pay X for a certain car doesn't mean others wouldnt.....

 

At the end of the day I've never bought a car as an investment, and shall continue to buy cars I like and moan about the ones I want but can't afford

 

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