The Epic Austrian owned R16 from Germany doing French things in a Parallel Universe near England Saga

[pshome]

So I have to rejet the carby.

 

No, just turn that screw "C" out by two turns.

[pshome]

 

Well, I actually wanted to drive the car again eventually.

 

Reliable french cars with interesting styling are available.

[Junkman]

No, just turn that screw "C" out by two turns.

 

What do you think we've experimented with all day?

 

We weren't standing around watching a car run badly, believe it, or not.

And no, no fucking electronic ignition system is required for a car to run reasonably well I have you know.

Even if this appears to be hard to believe for some, I have set up the odd ignition and carby over the past forty fucking years.

This includes SU carbies on a bloody Rover V8, ffs.

 

I know how to adjust a mixture, I know how to adjust the timing of a bloody motorcar.

I do this with the vac disonnected and plugged when the book says to do so.

I know a lot more than this, for example, the phenomenon of a vacuum leak is also not unbeknownst to me.

So please stop assuming there is a single thing left that wasn't checked over the past fucking Month.

 

It doesn't work, ffs, no matter what I do.

That's the reason why I am asking for advice, not because I'm too dim to tune a fucking car or can't carry out the necessary trouble shooting.

 

What I haven't encountered yet in my life is that a car runs absolutely shit once you get the timing marks aligned and runs a lot better

(but nowhere near good) when you quite massively deviate from that.

I wonder why that is, but I reckon it's the next thing that needs to be investigated, but I don't know how this could happen in the first place.

All the things we checked so far turned out to be okay.

 

- The dizzy isn't a tooth off, because it doesn't have a gear drive.

- The ignition leads are in their correct positions in relation to the cap.

 

A really odd thing happened when we tried to set the timing statically - no matter how far we turned the dizzy, the test light remained lit.

And no, I am NOT stupid and KNOW how to do this. It worked in every single case I did this in my life, but not this time.

 

I adjusted the points gap and the dwell is now over 50, i.e. my dwell meter only goes up to 50.

It's supposed to be 54 - 60, It was only 35 before I adjusted the gap, so it is about right now.

 

To remind you all, the car started playing up on the way back from France. It ran reasonably well until then.

Since then, any attempt to fix it has been futile. I meanwhile fear the problem is far more serious than carby and ignition tuning.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

If you haven't checked already;

 

Does the centrifugal advance bit on the distributor work properly, i.e the rotor arm turn and spring back? If it's sticky, you can set the timing until you are blue in the face and it will change every time you rev the engine. I'm guessing you have a Ducellier distributor? Not sure on this but on old Lucas and Bosch ones, rotor arm  off, remove the felt plug in the top of the shaft and spray WD40 in there whilst waggling it, finishing off with some oil. Lots of play in the shaft will have a similar result, dwell angle all over the place. 

 

I had this on an Alfasud once, drove me fucking mental.

 

This still sounds more like a mixture problem though with the hunting.

 

The diaphragm in the capsule could be NFG causing an air leak. If pinching the vac pipe causes the engine run differently, that may be a problem. Had that on an A Series about 87 years ago.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Oh - can you see a part number on the distributor? If some spoon fitted a Renault 8 distributor in 1989 because a) if fitted and sort of worked and thus b ) they couldn't be arsed to fit the right one........... 

[Guest Hooli]

 

What I haven't encountered yet in my life is that a car runs absolutely shit once you get the timing marks aligned and runs a lot better

(but nowhere near good) when you quite massively deviate from that.

I wonder why that is, but I reckon it's the next thing that needs to be investigated, but I don't know how this could happen in the first place.

All the things we checked so far turned out to be okay.

 

I have. It was a B-series that had been tweaked with unknown mods & needed different timing to suit. I set it by trial & error as the marks where useless. Then I painted my own marks for next time.

 

As for the points staying lit, sounds like they might be shorting to earth via the dizzy baseplate. I've had a few sets of points where the insulators on the pivot don't insulate.

[Conrad D. Conelrad]

I adjusted the points gap and the dwell is now over 50, i.e. my dwell meter only goes up to 50.

 

Were you doubling the reading on the gauge? The meter said for 4 cylinders to read the 8 cylinder figure and double it. 

[Junkman]

Yes, I know. THE FUCKING DWELL ANGLE IS PRETTY CORRECT, OKAY????

 

The dizzy is a Ducellier, it is the correct type for a 697.01, the centrifugal weights work a treat, there is no play in the shaft and the camshaft has no noticeable end float.

[Eddie Honda]

Yes, I know. THE FUCKING DWELL ANGLE IS PRETTY CORRECT, OKAY????

 

The dizzy is a Ducellier,

Dwell angle meter that only goes up to 50 degrees? Fucking shite meter that. (Yes, I know 54-60 really means 57 ±3)

 

Ducellier - another bag of shite. S.E.V. ones are too. Both make the Prince of Darkness efforts look fantastic.

 

Take the carby top off and tell me how much shite is in there when you're ready...

[pshome]

Me still think you burn lean mixture, that shitty running with ignition seemingly jumping around is typically for that.

Its not that the spark isn't fired correctly, rather your mix is bad and keeps changing, causing the engine to rattle around.

 

Air leak, some seal somewhere?

Valve? Some friendly garage with a leak down tester around?

 

</wait for 2 page rant why it can't possibly be a valve or air leak mode on>

[artdjones]

The original timing figures won't work for modern petrol, another thing that has gone downhill since 1986.

[SiC]

</wait for 2 page rant why it can't possibly be a valve or air leak mode on>

That exhaust sealing paste that Squire Dawson provided must be some strong dodgy shit for this amount of anger from JM.

 

Do these engines have a locating key on the pulley? Being French it could be anything.

[artdjones]

How's the condenser?

I only ask because,if the test light won't go out when you turn the distributor,the points might be shorting out through it.

[Isaac Hunt]

That old sticker in the back window mentions 1967 by the looks

Is that the Francois equivalent of a late 1980's "Back Flash". In the U.K. We didn't bother with the Je Suis bit, we just went straight to 'Escort' or 'Sierra'

[Junkman]

Me still think you burn lean mixture, that shitty running with ignition seemingly jumping around is typically for that.

Its not that the spark isn't fired correctly, rather your mix is bad and keeps changing, causing the engine to rattle around.

 

Air leak, some seal somewhere?

Valve? Some friendly garage with a leak down tester around?

 

</wait for 2 page rant why it can't possibly be a valve or air leak mode on>

 

A squeaky clean tailpipe makes me want to agree with the leanness, but if that's really the case then the carby indeed needs bigger jets.

The purchase of a gas meter is seriously considered for quite a while now.

No air leak can be detected, but I'm prepared to change the carby base gaskets for new ones if I can obtain some.

I would like to not believe a valve has been damaged. The engine is running way too nicely for that during the brief moments it does run nicely.

Sadly I also don't own any compression test equipment at this time. Checking the camshaft for borkedness is also a major operation on these.

 

Garages that don't send you away when you rock up with a car like this are getting thin on the grounds. This is not Southern Munich.

Weirdly South Manchester garages are still firmly in the hands of non Eastern Europeans, so knowledge of motor vehicles is comparatively scant.

Dr Tom of Lake View Rover Sanatorium told me to call him back in April 2019. Another master of fine chod tinkerage has shockingly retired.

The GGG is seriously struggling to obtain service for quite some time now, hence this helpless bricolage.

 

For those who think I'm angry, well, I'm not. I'm desperate. One Month of attempting to alleviate a running problem has gone by without any

tangible result. I don't know how you guys would feel after that. This is not a babied show car, it's my everyday transport and thus urgently required.

 

For those with a pulley fetish or fixation, the R16 is famous for its back to front engine installation.

The timing marks are thus cast in the engine block next to a rectangular recess through which about an inch of the flywheel is visible.

There is a notch in the flywheel that needs to be aligned with the corresponding timing mark on the engine block using a strobe light.

If this is done, the engine barely keeps running at all and sounds like a Lanz Bulldog.

To get the engine running remotely acceptable, it needs to be set way off the mark, not just a few degrees usage of that newfngled petrol piss

would normally require. I'm talking about 10 - 15 degrees at least.

This has me wondering to not a small degree, since the dizzy isn't gear driven, so being a tooth out is not an applicable explanation.

Also, why would the car have been running well for over 15,000km if that were the case?

I also don't believe the timing chain has jumped a tooth, since as I said earlier, the engine runs way too well during the brief periods it does run well.

[Junkman]

I don't understand how this works on FORRIN RUBBISH, no, but something is very much out of whack.

 

I take the liberty to remind you that what you choose to refer to as FORRIN RUBBISH at least got you and your freshly acquired tat home.

A feeling I still have to get re-accustomed to after years of permanently breaking down with the finest England managed to muster.

[jonathan_dyane]

Horrible Halfords sell compression testers. It’s the next thing I’d check...

[junkyarddog]

I had a problem with a viva a while back,

It would run fine sometimes,and terrible the next.

No amount of carb tinkering or distributor fettling,coil changing would produce a conclusive result.

 

Turns out,it had a resistor wire for the coil built into the loom which was faulty and was producing a hap-hazzard fault,bypassing it resulted in good running again,so it's something I do to every viva that now passes my way(3 currently)

 

I know this may not be of any use to you,as I know nothing of Renault 16's,

But it may be worth just giving the coil a direct 12v feed and see how things go?

[cobblers]

A really odd thing happened when we tried to set the timing statically - no matter how far we turned the dizzy, the test light remained lit.

And no, I am NOT stupid and KNOW how to do this. It worked in every single case I did this in my life, but not this time.

 

 

I preface this with: You know distributors a lot better than I do. I've timed about 10 in my entire life. 

 

However the test light should go out whenever the points open. If the points open, then there is no way to complete the circuit other than through the condenser. What kind of test light were you using? LED or Incandescent?

 

Could it be that the condenser is poorly and leaking current causing intermittent spark and strange timing?

[pshome]

Maybe engine got an overhaul and mark is not correct anymore.

Take out all sparks, find a piece of plastic or wooden rod (cooking spoon)  stick it into cylinder 1 spark hole, turn engine slowly and find piston very top position, check where the mark is.

If mark is way off, just turn engine by advance it should have and set a new mark, scratch it or paint dot.

 

Chinaman sells you a tester for < 20 of your hard earned pounds, or try this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//202472159128

 

Don't buy that Gunson Gas tester, pain to work with. Find a proper used one from a Mot station or closed garage.

[artdjones]

Swop the condenser, even if only for elimination purposes.

[pshome]

No air leak can be detected, but I'm prepared to change the carby base gaskets for new ones if I can obtain some.

32DIR it is no? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332822769128

[Junkman]

Don't buy that Gunson Gas tester, pain to work with. Find a proper used one from a Mot station or closed garage.

Knackered ex MoT or garage gas testers are considered being worth more than Fabergé eggs in this country, so I'd rather buy a car or two instead.

If I could, that is.

 

 

 

32DIR it is no? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332822769128

Yeah, I just found that kit in my stash. The stuff I have. Unbelievable.

 

 

Two NOS genuine Renault condensers ordered.

 

 

 

Chinese shiny shit compression tester kit ordered.

 

[320touring]

My GSA was timed up by the book, dwell set perfect and points on on etc.

 

Ran beautifully at idle and low rpm, but was gutless at higher rpm with a load.

 

A previous owner had scraped a mark on the dizzy and baseplate. Putting it back to that mark had it running perfik, and revhappy.

 

I suppose the moral of the story is "stuff wears over time, and factory settings are now just a start point"

 

If you get her sweet by ear that's a start.

[Junkman]

Yeah, but I suck at this get sweet by ear thing.

I usually can get them running so so to get them to one of those tune by ear wizards, but I'm certainly not an authority in these matters.

[320touring]

Yeah, but I suck at this get sweet by ear thing.

I usually can get them running so so to get them to one of those tune by ear wizards, but I'm certainly not an authority in these matters.

Teh GSA runs rich, so it's not exact, but it pulls cleanly, no flat spots or pops/gurgles.

 

I know what you mean though, sometimes feels like a dark art!

 

I just leave it alone..

[Junkman]

I do have the impression that the R16 runs lean, but it's not possible to richen it up further within the realms of the current carby config.

Sadly I don't know what exact car it came from, otherwise I could look up the jet sizes and compare them with the R16 ones,

however this is also semi futile, since the engine I have never came with a dual carby, someone has modded this on.

Hence I'm still trying to obtain an original fannymould and carby.

 

Interesting calculation, btw:

 

Dual carby has 24mm bores, so F = (12² x π) x 2 = 905 mm²

Original carby has a 36mm bore, so F = 18² x π = 1017 mm²

 

Don't know what those humpties wanted to gain, or better, I do know, but they still have to learn about cars what I have forgotten over the decades.

The Renault engineers's reasoning makes sense though, they needed the gas column pulsating at a higher frequency for the hemi head engines.

When shade tree mechanics want to outsmart an armada of very well paid engineers. Jayzerz shat.

[Mally]

I have one of those Chinese compression testers.

Ghosty will confirm it is indeed shit!

 

I also have a very large hammer that works well.

[pshome]

jets are what 2,50 each? Take out the ones you have, check what they are and buy larger ones, 2 and 4 steps up. Then play around with them.

[pshome]

Various R16 32DIR jetings here:

http://boursinp.free.fr/bonus/weber/weberdat.xls