Older vehicles face £10 'toxicity' charge in central London

[DodgeRover]

Are you?

Did you miss the part where he said it applied to ALL vehicles pre Euro 4. Not everybody wants to run out and buy a new vehicle

[Lacquer Peel]

He said it'd affect his business.

[Sheefag]

It will.

Sadiq is the new Tony Blair, a shameless self publicist who desperately wants to be Prime Minister.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AVIMjXsaqBcJ:www.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/everyone-loves-sadiq-khan-except-those-who-really-know/+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b

[Lacquer Peel]

I don't doubt that, careerist Blairite of the worst kind.

It's a terrible policy too as it's been proven that the newest diesels emit the most nitrogen dioxide.

 

Sheefag is desperate to be a victim and I'm not sure he is. Are your vans pre-2006? How will it affect your business?

[Sheefag]

By necessity, being self employed means I have no sense of victimhood, I can't afford it.

Victimhood is a worthless excuse used by weak people to provide excuses for their failures.

I have to replace 3 perfectly good vans.

This is an unnecessary cost.

A cost is money.

Money doesn't grow on trees.

Some socialists fail to understand this simple fact.

This is inflationary.

I will have to recoup this cost from customers.

[Lacquer Peel]

He isn't a socialist.

How old are your vans?

[castros_bro]

I'm sure that I have missed something (probably the point) but how does joining a car club make your vehicle comply with these emission regulations? Presumably I could join the Bugatti Owners Club and then take any old diesel van in without penalty (not sure what their membership fee is these days, but it could be a saving)

 

You have missed the point, it's not that sort of car club but a form of car hire by the hour with moderns vehicles, lookee hereee at one we use.

 

https://www.travelsmartsurrey.info/driving/car-clubs

[forddeliveryboy]

In the early 90s if you went up and strolled around central London for the day you could pick a load of black grot out of your nose when you came home courtesy of all the Routemasters and ancient Fairways. I quite often used to spend 6 hours standing at Marble Arch supervising buses from 2008 to about 2013, and never had that problem. I guess the problem now is the stuff you cant see.

 

I'd also have no real problem with banning private cars from the C-Charge zone, or even the area equivalent to Zone 1 of the train/tube network, but in my experience (most recently, driving buses into town until July last year) there really aren't many private drivers around anyway- there are quite a few private hire vehicles, but the rest is all delivery vans/lorries, buses, and tradesmen. The only thing is that there are places in Central London that people need to get to- the only time I've ever paid the C-Charge in however long it's been going was earlier this year, when I had to drop my father in law off at St Thomas' Hospital so he could have his heart defibrilated. He can't walk all that far, so a train and tube journey in the peak of rush hour would have been pretty hellish for him, and the £12 was far cheaper than paying for a cab, black or otherwise- in fact £22 would still have been cheaper I reckon.

 

Some good points there. Sooner or later this pussy-footing about will end and people will realise all transport in cities will have to be emission free (ignoring tyre and other non-exhaust particulates) at the point of use. If for no other reason than it will allow more air traffic without sending pollution even further beyond 'safe' limits.

 

The industrialised world has always dealt with pollution by either making it less or even in-visible (think high chimneys, nano-particulates or nuclear). The less visible it becomes, the more difficult for people to associate disease with it, and the more likely they are not to worry or up sticks and migrate.

 

Thing is, healthcare costs are out of control and people are better informed. Ever so slowly it's dawning on Mankind that we're approaching the point where we can't continue as we always have - sooner or later most of our energy must come from something other than setting fire to stuff or making ever more clusters of childhood leukaemia and more radioactive waste needing several civilisations of highly secure storage.

 

If it weren't for the organisations and individuals who are making vast fortunes by slowly poisoning all life - and who are more powerful than most governments - we'd probably see a much quicker move towards cheaper, clean, sustainable energy.

 

It won't take long for people to wonder how we put up with vibrating inline fours with daft maintenance costs once the electric motor has smoothly and silently made its way under cars. The concern is that we pour our money into French and Chinese coffers to build nuclear reactors on our land to power all this movement, instead of us investing in ourselves and our future harvesting clean, free power.

[Adrian_pt]

Just returned from having walked across a decent chunk of the part of London that would be affected - all but 2 vehicles seen would be exempt. 

[DodgeRover]

He said it'd affect his business.

Plenty of people (self employed and businesses) running pre '06 vans round here (Surrey) I don't doubt that given how much more everything costs as you get nearer London there will be more people and businesses just about managing and running older vehicles.

It's also going to affect (effect) anybody working for him driving to Sheefag to pick up a van or materials for the days work.

Been there done this when the LEZ came in it had the biggest effect on those who could least afford it.

[Rave]

If it weren't for the organisations and individuals who are making vast fortunes by slowly poisoning all life - and who are more powerful than most governments - we'd probably see a much quicker move towards cheaper, clean, sustainable energy.

 

It won't take long for people to wonder how we put up with vibrating inline fours with daft maintenance costs once the electric motor has smoothly and silently made its way under cars. The concern is that we pour our money into French and Chinese coffers to build nuclear reactors on our land to power all this movement, instead of us investing in ourselves and our future harvesting clean, free power.

 

I'm all in favour of renewables, but I don't put our failure to adopt them on a more widespread basis down to some grand conspiracy by vested interests, but more to the immense practical difficulties of implementing it while keeping the lights on. I take it you've seen this?

 

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

As I post wind is contributing over 5GW, and it was up to 7GW at one point last week, but I regularly see it as low as 1GW when the wind isn't blowing. Unless battery tech improves so rapidly that it becomes feasible for everyone to have a Tesla Power Wall equivalent in their house, the problem of storing the intermittent energy produced by renewables is simply massive. We would literally need to build about another 20 Dinorwigs to even come close to being able to do it at this point in time, I'd say.

 

On the question of urban pollution, I honestly think there would be a lot more to be gained from moving over to electric lorries and buses than private cars and taxis. LPG taxis would be a good shout in the shorter term. TfL claim they're going to stop buying diesel buses next year...hmm. My old company actually runs the first 'all electric route', the 312 from South Croydon to Norwood Junction. I'm not up to date with how well it runs now, but the last time it was my job to stand around in Croydon Garage supervising, the electric buses were only good for 3 of the pretty short rounders before needing a 2 hour top-up; you might have got 4 out of them with a sympathetic driver. They were lovely to drive, apparently, but without seriously massive investment in charger infrastructure, electric buses simply aren't going to be up to the task of running a long route from the suburbs to the centre and back. You'd literally need to have inductive chargers built into every terminus so the bus could have some charged whacked into it when the driver parks up to have any chance at all with current tech, I'd have said. An electric lorry going from drop to drop with a longer spell for loading/unloading each time could be a lot more practical though.

[Pillock]

Nottingham park and ride is now 100% electric buses, and for that use case they work well as they're charged at the P&R sites. Bus comes back with less than 10% or whatever, drops passengers off, driver swaps it for a fully charged one that's parked up 50ft away and leaves the first on charge.

[Lacquer Peel]

Plenty of people (self employed and businesses) running pre '06 vans round here (Surrey) I don't doubt that given how much more everything costs as you get nearer London there will be more people and businesses just about managing and running older vehicles.

It's also going to affect (effect) anybody working for him driving to Sheefag to pick up a van or materials for the days work.

Been there done this when the LEZ came in it had the biggest effect on those who could least afford it.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for, thanks.

[Rave]

Nottingham park and ride is now 100% electric buses, and for that use case they work well as they're charged at the P&R sites. Bus comes back with less than 10% or whatever, drops passengers off, driver swaps it for a fully charged one that's parked up 50ft away and leaves the first on charge.

 

Oh, so you need two electric buses where previously you needed just the one diesel then? With the attendant double purchase costs and storage requirements?

 

There's nowhere near enough bus garage space in London to double the size of the fleet, even if you could afford to buy 18,000 new buses at £250k or so each, along with 9,000 charging points...

[chaseracer]

Oh, so you need two electric buses where previously you needed just the one diesel then? With the attendant double purchase costs and storage requirements?

 

There's nowhere near enough bus garage space in London to double the size of the fleet, even if you could afford to buy 18,000 new buses at £250k or so each, along with 9,000 charging points...

 

The salient point was made above about the need to invest in improving technology.

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm all in favour of renewables, but I don't put our failure to adopt them on a more widespread basis down to some grand conspiracy by vested interests, but more to the immense practical difficulties of implementing it while keeping the lights on. I take it you've seen this?

 

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

As I post wind is contributing over 5GW, and it was up to 7GW at one point last week, but I regularly see it as low as 1GW when the wind isn't blowing. Unless battery tech improves so rapidly that it becomes feasible for everyone to have a Tesla Power Wall equivalent in their house, the problem of storing the intermittent energy produced by renewables is simply massive. We would literally need to build about another 20 Dinorwigs to even come close to being able to do it at this point in time, I'd say.

 

On the question of urban pollution, I honestly think there would be a lot more to be gained from moving over to electric lorries and buses than private cars and taxis. LPG taxis would be a good shout in the shorter term. TfL claim they're going to stop buying diesel buses next year...hmm. My old company actually runs the first 'all electric route', the 312 from South Croydon to Norwood Junction. I'm not up to date with how well it runs now, but the last time it was my job to stand around in Croydon Garage supervising, the electric buses were only good for 3 of the pretty short rounders before needing a 2 hour top-up; you might have got 4 out of them with a sympathetic driver. They were lovely to drive, apparently, but without seriously massive investment in charger infrastructure, electric buses simply aren't going to be up to the task of running a long route from the suburbs to the centre and back. You'd literally need to have inductive chargers built into every terminus so the bus could have some charged whacked into it when the driver parks up to have any chance at all with current tech, I'd have said. An electric lorry going from drop to drop with a longer spell for loading/unloading each time could be a lot more practical though.

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm all in favour of renewables, but I don't put our failure to adopt them on a more widespread basis down to some grand conspiracy by vested interests, but more to the immense practical difficulties of implementing it while keeping the lights on. I take it you've seen this?

 

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

 

As I post wind is contributing over 5GW, and it was up to 7GW at one point last week, but I regularly see it as low as 1GW when the wind isn't blowing. Unless battery tech improves so rapidly that it becomes feasible for everyone to have a Tesla Power Wall equivalent in their house, the problem of storing the intermittent energy produced by renewables is simply massive. We would literally need to build about another 20 Dinorwigs to even come close to being able to do it at this point in time, I'd say.

 

On the question of urban pollution, I honestly think there would be a lot more to be gained from moving over to electric lorries and buses than private cars and taxis. LPG taxis would be a good shout in the shorter term. TfL claim they're going to stop buying diesel buses next year...hmm. My old company actually runs the first 'all electric route', the 312 from South Croydon to Norwood Junction. I'm not up to date with how well it runs now, but the last time it was my job to stand around in Croydon Garage supervising, the electric buses were only good for 3 of the pretty short rounders before needing a 2 hour top-up; you might have got 4 out of them with a sympathetic driver. They were lovely to drive, apparently, but without seriously massive investment in charger infrastructure, electric buses simply aren't going to be up to the task of running a long route from the suburbs to the centre and back. You'd literally need to have inductive chargers built into every terminus so the bus could have some charged whacked into it when the driver parks up to have any chance at all with current tech, I'd have said. An electric lorry going from drop to drop with a longer spell for loading/unloading each time could be a lot more practical though.

I agree with most of what you say and don't deny there's a huge change just around the corner, whether we perceive then tackle it as our Victorian forebears would have (an opportunity to shine) or as a timid, washed-up nation full of small-minded behaviour and short-termism is not clear, yet. The Germans are planning for the medium to long term, while we allow our lawyer and economist Parliamentarians to take the line of least resisyance, for them.

 

The long and short of it is that wind, solar and hydro energy is there for the taking and sooner or later we will - those who get in on the act in these early years will have significant competitive advantages in years to come as nuclear and fossil fuel price climb up and up.

 

Even the financial markets prefer renewable energy, because it's an unlimited supply which isn't affected by the bag aries of politics, religion and war.

 

Prices are already dropping well below what anyone envisaged only five years ago as economies of scale and experience reduce costs. The Dutch have bought offshore wind power for well under £70/MWh, recently. In contrast we're promising to pay well over £100 for the French to come and contaminate us with nuclear, not including clear-up and waste storage costs. Although there is a massive question mark over whether or not HinckleyC will ever go up.

 

As you say, storage is the key (as it is with nuclear if you don't want to fill the gaps with FF) and battery tech is showing all the signs of promise we could only dream of, not very long ago.

Add more pumped-hydro storage, synthesise gas to be used in place of FF gas, connect up millions of EVs to a smart grid and the potential is as large as it needs to be.

 

A supergrid linking the North, South, East and West of Europe will be bigger than weather systems, so when it's wind less in Scotland, the chances are there will be a lot of power generation elsewhere.

 

But RE isn't just one source - it's several, and they're not so difficult to predict. Tides are predictable for thousands of years to come, the Grid already predicts wind and solar inputs very accurately. And geo-thermal is as quickly controlled as pumped-storage and available 24/7.

As are most UK rivers.

 

The biggest challenge is a continent-wide period of low precipitation, no wind and low temperatures, such as can happen in Jan/Feb with a massive blocking high pressure system sitting over Northern Europe.

 

I think we should be quite prepared to burn a little coal in an emergency, for when RE synthesised gas is running low. It's looking like once every ten years when there's a particularly low input, high demand period.

[forddeliveryboy]

Oh, so you need two electric buses where previously you needed just the one diesel then? With the attendant double purchase costs and storage requirements?

 

There's nowhere near enough bus garage space in London to double the size of the fleet, even if you could afford to buy 18,000 new buses at £250k or so each, along with 9,000 charging points...

 

As battery costs fall (as they are doing and are predicted to continue doing) then more and more buses will be electric. I foresee grid points for rapid charging along the busiest routes, with batteries used beyond these and a few parallel hybrids for more remote routes.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day - we've got forty years of adaptation ahead of us, to disengage from the total reliance on a rising-price, diminishing resource we've put all our eggs into.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/02/07/harrogate-bus-company-uk-orders-8-electric-volvo-buses/

[Station]

If they were concerned about pollution, they would ban all vehicles from the area. How is this aimed at reducing pollution? If you need to drive into London you will have to, you now have to pay for the privilege of doing so.

Where does the money go to - the same place as taxes. It is so transparent and obvious as with most of these schemes, that anyone who states it is an idiot.

[castros_bro]

I agree with most of what you say and don't deny there's a huge change just around the corner, whether we perceive then tackle it as our Victorian forebears would have (an opportunity to shine) or as a timid, washed-up nation full of small-minded behaviour and short-termism is not clear, yet. The Germans are planning for the medium to long term, while we allow our lawyer and economist Parliamentarians to take the line of least resisyance, for them.

 

The long and short of it is that wind, solar and hydro energy is there for the taking and sooner or later we will - those who get in on the act in these early years will have significant competitive advantages in years to come as nuclear and fossil fuel price climb up and up.

 

Even the financial markets prefer renewable energy, because it's an unlimited supply which isn't affected by the bag aries of politics, religion and war.

 

Prices are already dropping well below what anyone envisaged only five years ago as economies of scale and experience reduce costs. The Dutch have bought offshore wind power for well under £70/MWh, recently. In contrast we're promising to pay well over £100 for the French to come and contaminate us with nuclear, not including clear-up and waste storage costs. Although there is a massive question mark over whether or not HinckleyC will ever go up.

 

As you say, storage is the key (as it is with nuclear if you don't want to fill the gaps with FF) and battery tech is showing all the signs of promise we could only dream of, not very long ago.

Add more pumped-hydro storage, synthesise gas to be used in place of FF gas, connect up millions of EVs to a smart grid and the potential is as large as it needs to be.

 

A supergrid linking the North, South, East and West of Europe will be bigger than weather systems, so when it's wind less in Scotland, the chances are there will be a lot of power generation elsewhere.

 

But RE isn't just one source - it's several, and they're not so difficult to predict. Tides are predictable for thousands of years to come, the Grid already predicts wind and solar inputs very accurately. And geo-thermal is as quickly controlled as pumped-storage and available 24/7.

As are most UK rivers.

 

The biggest challenge is a continent-wide period of low precipitation, no wind and low temperatures, such as can happen in Jan/Feb with a massive blocking high pressure system sitting over Northern Europe.

 

I think we should be quite prepared to burn a little coal in an emergency, for when RE synthesised gas is running low. It's looking like once every ten years when there's a particularly low input, high demand period.

 

 

Sir/Madam,

 

The world has already anticipated your problem and way ahead of the little island off Euroland.  Or the Arabs are - having built Noor 3 in Morocco storing solar energy as molten salt then later on using the heat to produce electricity.

 

 

In its third phase, the project finances the construction of a 150 MW CSP solar power with thermal storage. This is a technology of particular interest to utilities as production is more predictable than for most renewable energy options and the associated storage is efficient and reliable. That facilitates its integration into existing / conventional power systems and minimises the need for back-up fossil-fuel generation capacity.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/blending/noor-iii-tower-plant-ouarzazate-solar-complex_en

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm loving that humanity is having to engineer things once again, in the pursuit of making the world a better place.

 

The single biggest waste of energy in this country is the poor quality of our houses and offices, energy-wise. There's so much which could be saved for very little real effort.

[UltraWomble]

Want to avoid the £10 charge?

But keep the Autoshite feeling?

 

Hock a lung ( or kidney) and splash out on one of these...

[Pillock]

It's a Citroen, before long it'll just be a big toenail you need to hock and they'll throw insurance in for that.

[DodgeRover]

^^^ oh dear god. If the advert promotes an epileptic type seizure do I get free cars for life?

[BorniteIdentity]

There's no doubt about it - my 21 year old Toyota Diesel and 18 year old Toyota Petrol do create more emissions than a brand new car, despite their modest shortcomings.

 

Two questions however. (And sorry if they've been dealt with already in the thread)

 

1) With thousands of cars still sat at Thurleigh from the scrappage scheme with no apparent plan for them, why would I trust any new scheme?

 

2) Where is the magical switch in my current cars that stops them from belching out intolerable levels of Carbon/NOx at the weekend or after 6pm?

[Richard]

^^^ oh dear god. If the advert promotes an epileptic type seizure do I get free cars for life?

 

You won't need a free car because your licence will be taken away.

[castros_bro]

There's no doubt about it - my 21 year old Toyota Diesel and 18 year old Toyota Petrol do create more emissions than a brand new car, despite their modest shortcomings.

 

Two questions however. (And sorry if they've been dealt with already in the thread)

 

1) With thousands of cars still sat at Thurleigh from the scrappage scheme with no apparent plan for them, why would I trust any new scheme?

 

2) Where is the magical switch in my current cars that stops them from belching out intolerable levels of Carbon/NOx at the weekend or after 6pm?

 

1, Drone drone drone drone  - that is the last drone footage (and there are other eyewitness accounts available) I saw  there are NO scrappage vehicles at Thurleigh just rank on rank of new moderns SO  why should I trust someone who makes false claims?

 

2,  That'll be the ignition switch, most cars are fitted with them and in " position zero" they disable the engine so no exhaust pollution is emitted.   The whole big idea is as the air pollution limits are exceeded partly because of the number of cars on the roads in a particular area at a particular time so by  discouraging cars at peak time will address the problem of the air pollution limits being exceeded. 

[BorniteIdentity]

1, Drone drone drone drone  - that is the last drone footage (and there are other eyewitness accounts available) I saw  there are NO scrappage vehicles at Thurleigh just rank on rank of new moderns SO  why should I trust someone who makes false claims?

 

2,  That'll be the ignition switch, most cars are fitted with them and in " position zero" they disable the engine so no exhaust pollution is emitted.   The whole big idea is as the air pollution limits are exceeded partly because of the number of cars on the roads in a particular area at a particular time so by  discouraging cars at peak time will address the problem of the air pollution limits being exceeded. 

 

Thanks for your reply.  I'm actually driving past Thurleigh in the next few days, so I'll go and make an announced visit and ask some questions/see what's visable.

 

I understand what you're saying about emissions.  What I'd like is it to be 'marketed' as "We're keeping an eye on levels when they're at their highest" rather than the rhetoric of "All old cars are killers".

 

Genuinely, thanks for your post.  It's helpful.

[Sheefag]

The cumulative affect of new layers of taxation is the small business killer here.

Fully comp insurance on a van registered in London for any driver over 25 is north of £1200 per vehicle.

Parking in Mayfair, St James, Hyde Park, Marylebone and Fitzrovia is currently £4.90 an hour and rising.

Congestion charge started at £5, it's now £11.50 a day.

The new workplace pension means I now have to take the place of the government and pay into a fund for employees that may never pay out.

The 'Business Rates Revaluation 2017' is promising very significant increased costs for small businesses.

The T-Charge will start at £10 a day and go to whatever they can make it.

 

Two guys I know have in the last 12 months, closed ltd companies, laid off their staff, sold vans and closed premises. They now buy from the same suppliers as before but trickle it out for cash via Gumtree and Ebay. Anecdotal feedback is that they have never had it so good.

 

No sick pay to find, no pensions to pay, no staff training or qualifications to fund, no EL/PL insurance, premises insurance, professional indemnity insurance, van insurance, no more 04.30start/22.00finishes etc. etc., it all looks rather tempting.

[Lacquer Peel]

I wonder how many small business owners voted for the Tories due to their noises about supporting businesses. Now they're getting shafted like everyone else who isn't super wealthy.