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Peugeot to buy Vauxhall / Opel


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#61 OFFLINE   solid61

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:05 AM

If this happens it will really piss me off,i was bought up around vauxhalls and my grandad and dad worked there,vauxhall were a massive employer locally with many other firms relying on them,i can see the vauxhall name being dropped,i know many of their models have been poorly executed over the years bu they have always sold well,it will be a sad day and my grandad would turn in his grave if he could see what is probably happening.
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#62 ONLINE   flat4alfa

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 03:54 PM

^ Why duz you own a Fiat, den.

 

 

Replace with a nice and shiny Vauxhall, on PCP today!  Chop chop  ;-)


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#63 OFFLINE   Zantimisfit

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:59 PM

If this happens it will really piss me off,i was bought up around vauxhalls and my grandad and dad worked there,vauxhall were a massive employer locally with many other firms relying on them,i can see the vauxhall name being dropped,i know many of their models have been poorly executed over the years bu they have always sold well,it will be a sad day and my grandad would turn in his grave if he could see what is probably happening.

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#64 OFFLINE   Hendry

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 06:07 PM

I can just see it now, a joint Peugeot/Citroen/DS/Opel dealership in every town, full of more shit cars than you can shake a stick at.

If Ellesmere Port closes because of this it's shockingly unfair on the lads there because didn't they win the contract internally for the new Astra because they were far more productive and had higher quality control than other GM plants? All those hard working and skilled people out of a job, no way of paying their mortgage, putting food on the table.

I read an article on a motor trade forum which said Carlos Tavares will need to shut the UK plants as keeping all Vauxhall/Opel plants open alongside the PSA ones isn't viable and they can't close the German ones because the government are behind the Unions, have given funding to stop the closures in the past and because it will cost them 3 times as much to close a German factory as a UK one as well as 3 times as much in redundancy pay per head, so as usual the British are getting fucked over by the Americans, Germans, French.

Interesting to see what will happen with the Vauxhall/Renault/Fiat can tie up as recently Fiat ended their van deal with PSA and now no longer have an involvement in the Sevel Boxer/Relay/Ducato. Their medium van is now a Renault Trafic/Vauxhall Vivaro, and the Vauxhall Combo is a rebadged Fiat Doblo, all very baffling so will the Corsavan be dropped for a Bipper/Nemo clone, Combo become a Partner/Berlingo, Vivaro a Dispatch/Expert clone and the Movano a Boxer/Relay clone. Why about small cars, will PSA drop their alliance with Toyota for the C1/108 and badge engineer a Viva clone or will Vauxhall/Opel be banned from using this by GM after takeover because it's some Korean or South American GM product. Will they build Astra and 308 and C4 on the same platform with loads of the same parts or will they be totally different product ranges just sharing economies of scale for buying power etc?

IMO modern Vauxhall/Opels are dross but more stylish than PSA stuff (308 and DS stuff aside) don't feel as crudely built and look a bit more interesting. Peugeot and Citroen ranges have been mediocre for years, Since as far back as just after the days of the 1/2/3/406 and the Xantia, ZX and Saxo their ranges have been serious also rans. Last time barring the 308 and DS stuff they made good looking cars.
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#65 ONLINE   Vin

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 06:44 PM

This deal hasn't happened yet, but if it goes ahead, the UK plants certainly do look vulnerable.

 

A combined PSA/Opel/Vauxhall operation will have 24 production sites. Obviously that will be untenable so some will have to give. As has been stated in previous posts there are a number of reasons that UK production is vulnerable. Another reason is that, Ellesmere Port only make the Astra and 80% of output goes to the EU, with 75% of material used to build imported from the EU. In a post Brexit world, out of the single market and the customs union (the aim according to the white paper) this will mean tariffs on stuff going back and forth, it doesn't look promising :-( :-(  

 

I can't see any reason why Vauxhall won't survive, as most of them are built abroad anyway (Astras (including some RHD) are also built in Gliwice in Poland)...It just looks like UK production will become unviable...


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#66 OFFLINE   Isaac Hunt

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 06:54 PM

I was brought up on BMC / BL 'tin' and my Dad had no time for Vauxhall, don't think he ever drove one.  

 

I came by a 1990 Cavalier 2.0 CDi and asked him to shift from mine gaff to his gaff, 55 Miles.  By the time he got home, he had decided he was having it, loved it.   My profit margin vaporized cos he knew what I had paid for it.   It was a nice car for it's day and he had it for a while before changing it for a later Cavalier with an Autobox.

 

Neither of us had a Vauxhall since.  My lad just got a Corsa Black Edition, struck me as a nice little car.  His GF just got an Astra GTC and loves it.  I was that impressed by the Astra GTC, needing something 'newer' for business I was looking at a Astra GTC for myself as 99% of the time it is just me in the car.  I ended up with an Insignia SRi with 'all the toyz'.   I am not a fan of the latest Mundano, the XE Jags are overpriced in poverty spec and i'm a big Jag fan, loved the X-Types.  I didn't get as far as a Pisshat CC as I stumbled across the Insignia, well impressed with it.  Still enjoy driving some of my 'shite though', just can't rock up at clients in shite.

 

I'm not sure about the PSA influence.  Peugeot seemed to loose their way after some goodcars, the 205GTi, the 405 and 406.  Then they came out with that 'garfield grilled' 407, proper shite and the new one, whatever it is, hate the things and never got near one to know if they are any good.   Shitrons never floated my boat and I kept being drawn back to the Insignia.  Bloody comfy thing and a huge spec, they could be Shite of the Century in 10 years time.



#67 OFFLINE   New POD

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:59 PM

https://www.amazon.c...g/dp/0743299795

 

I quote : When The Machine That Changed the World was first published in 1990, Toyota was half the size of General Motors. Twenty years later Toyota passed GM as the world’s largest auto maker. This management classic was the first book to reveal Toyota’s lean production system that is the basis for its enduring success.

Authors Womack, Jones, and Roos provided a comprehensive description of the entire lean system. They exhaustively documented its advantages over the mass production model pioneered by General Motors and predicted that lean production would eventually triumph. Indeed, they argued that it would triumph not just in manufacturing but in every value-creating activity from health care to retail to distribution.

Today The Machine That Changed the World provides enduring and essential guidance to managers and leaders in every industry seeking to transform traditional enterprises into exemplars of lean success.

 

 

To be fair, this book (updated in 2000 IIRC) also ends the last chapter by predicting the major changes that we have seen this century, and are likely to see.

Whole brands and factories employing 10000000's of people will disappear and new brands will appear from lower cost but not lower quality areas of the world.  


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#68 ONLINE   Mr_Bo11ox

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 08:10 PM

Good book that

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#69 OFFLINE   Isaac Hunt

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:18 PM

Yeah, good book and very forward looking.   If George Orwell aka Blair gave us 1984 and talked of the world being watched and Jones etc gave us the MTCTW, what is the latest insightful literacy offering that predicts what the world will be like when today's 'automotive offerings' are available to half a bag o'sand



#70 OFFLINE   STUNO

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:16 PM

Slight thread hi-jack. I was looking at current Holden models in reference to my earlier post and Holden Aus are selling  a Holden Malibu. Turns out this is a USA Chev  Malibu with a different grille, but the 2014-5 model, not the latest and powered by a 2.3 four or 2.0 diesel. Maybe Holden want Aussies to throw out their 5 litre plus V8s and switch to that. It is of course much more socially responsible.


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#71 OFFLINE   MarvinsMom

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:42 PM

didn't GM shut down their Aussie (Holden) operations a couple of years ago and switch production out to Thailand?

 

or was that Ford?


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#72 OFFLINE   Rusty Sills

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 11:08 PM

didn't GM shut down their Aussie (Holden) operations a couple of years ago and switch production out to Thailand?

or was that Ford?


Both if I recall, with Toyota pulling out around 2007ish. No major auto assembly in Aus anymore.

#73 OFFLINE   STUNO

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 04:36 AM

Current Ford Aust. models on sale are..

Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Falcon and Mustang. Falcon production has ended.

 

Current Holden are..

Astra  coupe & saloon, Barina (may be Corsa rebadged), Caprice (sold to USA for police cars), Cascada convertible, Commodore, Cruze (daewoo rebadged), Insignia, Malibu (Chev  usa) and Spark (Daewoo ?) Holden is closing down soon. Commodore production still underway.


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#74 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 10:43 AM

I struggle to see a way out for GM's UK assembly plants if this PSA takeover goes through, no matter how hard the government promises to make it.

I just hope the public shows a little of the solidarity the French or Germans would if the situation was t'other way round and stops buying new Peugeots until the company demonstrates factories and jobs are secured.

In every other respect, the French and Germans have the European market and other mechanisms sewn up to suit themselves. After decades of bending over backwards to hand other nations our industry it would be satisfying to see the beginnings of a reversal of this - though no doubt the PC lot would cry foul and label their fellow men xenophobes or worse.
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#75 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:11 PM

I'd very much doubt very much if most people would veto buying a new Peugeot off the back of a factory shutting in Ellesmere Port.
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#76 ONLINE   Mr_Bo11ox

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:20 PM

I notice Chester and Cheshire west voted Leave. Just sayin'.

 

its gonna be difficult for whatever hapless trade minister exists in a years time or whatever when he has to troop over to Paris to argue the case for these UK plants, and Carlos Tavares' 10th in command says to him 'I've got 25% over capacity in my European factories. You are at the upper end of the labour cost spectrum AND you are leaving the single market putting you at a serious disadvantage if/when I need to move capacity, people, parts and machinery between my sites. What would you do in my position?'

 

maybe he should take DoobieToo with him for consultancy purposes.


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#77 OFFLINE   HillmanImp

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 01:29 PM

 You are at the upper end of the labour cost spectrum

 

The Brexit thing could be good for these sort of manufacturing jobs. The pound has been kept high for many years to suit the financial markets resulting in manufacturing in the UK being very expensive, without a bit of mutual masturbation from both sides.

 

If Brexit does go ahead and the financial services industry that our GPD relies on moves to new bases abroad, this may bring down the value of the pound which will be bob on for most of the people and areas that voted for Brexit as there is a large unemployed unskilled/semi skilled workforce going cheap as chips, relative to the cost of paying a country with the Euro. This could encourage the manufacturing industry to use these workers and bring jobs back to the places with large swathes of unemployment (which are likely to often be the areas that voted for Brexit in the first place) such as Wales and the north east.

 

However having a Tory government in charge of this is like putting a 3yr old at the helm of the Titanic. Kids aren't interested in steering the ship, just want to watch In the Night Garden and play with Thomas the Tank engine.

 

The Tories (and many of the MPs in the other parties) will be so concerned about ensuring that they don't lose any value on all their houses and other investments, they are going to fuck the rest of the country over good and proper to protect their own interests, despite clearly seeing that the ship is on collision course frigging huge iceberg. 

 

If they actually put some effort into turning away from the iceberg, most or all of the ship could be saved. Unfortunately, most of the people in charge will be so busy filling up the lifeboats with their own valuables, they won't be arsed about steering to save the whole ship and everyone else on it and we'll all drown to the screeches of Celine fucking Dion.


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#78 ONLINE   Mr_Bo11ox

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 02:46 PM

What you're saying there is, if all the moons align and with the right political will, we could literally compete with Romania and Bulgaria for European manufacturing jobs. Although we'd have to find a way to offset their advantage of being in the single market. To be honest I half hope that's what happens to these clowns who are mad for a brexit. My mate works as a fairly senior manager at EP and he reckoned 99% of the shop floor lads he spoke to were all for it, it certainly looks like they are going to 'take back control' of their daylight hours alright and maybe sooner than they ever dreamed of.


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#79 OFFLINE   Zantimisfit

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 02:55 PM

Grauniad says.....

Vauxhall’s brand and “committed workforce” are highly valued, the business secretary has been told during talks in Paris over the future of thousands of jobs in the UK car industry.

 

Greg Clarke travelled to Paris late on Thursday to meet his French counterpart, Christophe Sirugue, and board members of PSA Groupe, which is in talks to acquire General Motors’ loss-making European operation including Opel.

The deal would include Vauxhall which has plants at Ellesmere Port in Cheshire and Luton in Bedfordshire, which employ up to 4,500 staff.

 

Clark said: “I had constructive meetings in Paris with both my French counterpart and executives of PSA Group, in which they explained the rationale behind this potential alliance.

 

“They stressed that they valued highly the enduring strength of the Vauxhall brand, underpinned by its committed workforce. While discussions are still ongoing, they made clear to me that in any deal these were strengths they would wish to build on.

 

 

Summary is......

 

"Committed workforce are highly valued" he said...... "We're gonna miss them" he added


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#80 OFFLINE   Zantimisfit

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:04 PM

Premium?  I'm not so sure about that as it's pegged at same price point as Peugeot 308 CC

 

The trouble is 'Cascadia' will always be a hard to pronounce/spell/remember name for just an Opel Astra ragtop that is built in Poland.

 

That's not a premium interior.  It's a wasted opportunity and makes Dacia efforts seem tidier - they're less cluttered for starters. I can smell the plastic from here.  Perhaps the PSA input will help

 

https://s9.postimg.org/5qm51gljv/1280px_...

 

For some reason I see "The Scream", the painting by Edvard Munch when I see that. Maybe that says something about my current state of mental health more than anything else.

 

1280px_Opel_Cascada_Cockpit.jpg

 

Scream.png


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#81 OFFLINE   tommotech

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 04:08 PM

https://www.amazon.c...g/dp/0743299795
 
I quote : When The Machine That Changed the World was first published in 1990, Toyota was half the size of General Motors. Twenty years later Toyota passed GM as the world’s largest auto maker. This management classic was the first book to reveal Toyota’s lean production system that is the basis for its enduring success.
Authors Womack, Jones, and Roos provided a comprehensive description of the entire lean system. They exhaustively documented its advantages over the mass production model pioneered by General Motors and predicted that lean production would eventually triumph. Indeed, they argued that it would triumph not just in manufacturing but in every value-creating activity from health care to retail to distribution.
Today The Machine That Changed the World provides enduring and essential guidance to managers and leaders in every industry seeking to transform traditional enterprises into exemplars of lean success.
 
 
To be fair, this book (updated in 2000 IIRC) also ends the last chapter by predicting the major changes that we have seen this century, and are likely to see.
Whole brands and factories employing 10000000's of people will disappear and new brands will appear from lower cost but not lower quality areas of the world.  


A good book and a good system that only works for one entity, Toyota. That is because their employees are conditioned to that way of operating and collaborating. Other businesses try to adopt the system but cherry pick what they think are the best bits and don't get full buy-in. In Toyota their system is a way of life, not just a process.

Don't forget that PSA build Argo/108/C1 in Czech plant, the Toyota system operates there as none of the new workforce knew any different and very successful it has been.

I heard today that it cost one fifth less to axe a job in UK than in France, it doesn't take a genius to work out which plants would be on the closure list first. As I said I hope the opposite situation becomes the reality and some real positives come out of the deal, should it go ahead.

My personal experience of PSA suggests otherwise.

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#82 OFFLINE   For Fiats Sake

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:16 PM

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#83 OFFLINE   Frogchod

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:37 PM

Should've happened years ago then maybe all my company cars (Astras & Vectras) would've had comfy seats :)
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#84 OFFLINE   SiC

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 06:30 PM

What you're saying there is, if all the moons align and with the right political will, we could literally compete with Romania and Bulgaria for European manufacturing jobs. Although we'd have to find a way to offset their advantage of being in the single market. To be honest I half hope that's what happens to these clowns who are mad for a brexit. My mate works as a fairly senior manager at EP and he reckoned 99% of the shop floor lads he spoke to were all for it, it certainly looks like they are going to 'take back control' of their daylight hours alright and maybe sooner than they ever dreamed of.


But no longer part of EU, we don't have to have the work-time directives. So that means, with currency devaluation means you can have a workforce paid less (as business works in dollars) and work longer hours. I.e. workforce will be screwed over by being forced to work more hours while effectively being paid less.

Maybe we'll end up as the cheap sweatshop of the western world?
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#85 OFFLINE   Felly Magic

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:58 PM

If Luton & EP survive the chop, the staff will get royaly shafted sideways with sand, of that there is no doubt. GM Daewoo products like the Mokka and Viva will be axed pretty pronto I'd bet, with the base becoming yet another rebadge of the Czech built C1 etc


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#86 OFFLINE   Mr Lobster

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:01 PM

Sadly I think once the current Astra reaches its expected lifespan (2021) then it'll be all over for Ellesmere Port. Very possibly would have been the case anyway what with Brexit but almost certain now.


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#87 OFFLINE   willswitchengage

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:16 PM

I believe ALL Australian car factories have now been closed - GM, Ford and Toyota. 

 

Personally I believe Luton will go first - the van design is already shared with production in Sandouville in France where the identical Trafic is made, and that plant is closer to the parts factories on the continent, and the people who buy the vehicles. The Vivaro/Trafic has been very successful, but that doesn't mean that costs can be cut.

 

At the end of the day GM has two antiquated factories in the UK where components are shipped from the continent, assembled in factories with high labour and energy costs, and then sold again on the continent. The Japanese factories are a little different as the components have a greater share of UK and Asian-sourced parts, so the margin of buidling a factory in the UK or otherwise is reduced. The JLR factory in Castle Bromwich once made Lancaster bombers - compare this against the brand new factories in Eastern Europe that are closer to the customer and supply chain, have better transport links and have cheaper labour, rents and energy. No brainer, really.

 

Consider how globalised automotive supply chains are nowadays and nationalist arguments about car manufacturing go out the window really.


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#88 OFFLINE   MattLikesCars

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:14 PM

So if a recent post by someone on the Citroen Car Club (UK) faceache page is to be believed, PSA have apparently entered talks to partner with... Proton. Remember them? They seemed to just drop off the radar in the UK a few years ago even though a new car was supposed to be on the way. The Malaysian government gave them a big loan a couple of years ago and stipulated that they must pair up with a foreign manufacturer. Potentially a Dacia competitor on the way?


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#89 ONLINE   Junkman

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Posted 20 February 2017 - 11:55 PM

Is anyone of you actually going to finance some of that newfangled globaltosh?

Well, I won't. In the true spirit of this forum, I will not only avoid it, but boycott it.

 

And if you really need books in order to read what I'm preaching since the late 80s,

get a copy of The Insolent Chariots by John Keats. It was written in 1958.

And yes, you will have to obtain it used, since it was conspicuously never reprinted.

It's a bit hard to find too, so fun all around.

 

Further recommended reading are the books by Vance Packard (no relation to the car maker),

also written back in the Fifties.


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#90 OFFLINE   warren t claim

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 03:21 AM

PSA closed Ryton down without a seconds hesitation.

 

I think it's going to come down to who can influence PSA the most, May or Merkel.


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