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Autobahns under threat


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#31 OFFLINE   pshome

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:01 PM

The source cites a case where under the given circumstances of an accident the faster driver was held paritally liable. That was a court decision in a particular case. There is no law that generally makes the faster driver liable.


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#32 OFFLINE   rantingYoof

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:06 PM



You say driver standards here are low, yet British dash cam footage is entirely tedious! I've driven in plenty of other places (Paris and Malta spring to mind) that made British roads seem entirely stress-free.

 

This; my dashcam channel is a decent cure for insomnia relative to those videos from Russia and elsewhere...

 

Lots of 'oh gosh' and 'my that was a bit steep chap'.

 

None of this banana'ing your Lada under a twenty ton truck and then having four people scramble out and stare at the crash without a single hair out of place...


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#33 OFFLINE   cort1977

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:12 PM

Driving standards are shit in Scandinavia! Try commuting in Denmark, especially Copenhagen - super aggressive combined with total lack of spatial awareness or manners. If a Dane wants to go from filter lane to outside lane they just do it and bollocks to anyone who happens to be 'en route'. Meanwhile the Swedes are mostly asleep while at the wheel and if they're not they're on the phone and steering with their knees.

Just because they make good rally drivers doesn't mean they can be trusted anywhere else.....and then you have the bicycles!!!

You tend to know where you are with Germans, whether they are going fast or not. That is my observation.

Norwegians are OK too although I will keep my eye on them!

Admittedly I have mostly driven in Norway which is pretty law-abiding.


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#34 ONLINE   SiC

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:16 PM

Like a lot of countries judicial systems, court rulings make up case law. Ok 100% liability appears isn't completely true. Even so, previous rulings have shown that even if it's not your fault, then if you're speeding above the recommended speed you can be found liable if the accident was likely be avoidable if you were doing the recommended speed.

So yes, there is case law that states the driver can be in some part at fault if you are doing above the recommended speed - notably the fact if the accident wouldn't have happened if you were doing the recommended speed. Thus exceeding the recommended speed and being involved in an accident that isn't your fault, you extremely likely to be found at fault to some degree. Which is the fundamental point that I was saying in my original post. All this is clearly stated in the wiki references and in many other links that can be found by looking.

I'm happy with both what my flat mate partner, AutoBild and case law has said. If you disagree, fine, I don't really care anymore to argue this further.
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#35 OFFLINE   doobietoo

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:16 PM

It would be a shame if true... I enjoyed maxing out the PT......

 

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#36 OFFLINE   Breadvan72

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 08:44 PM

Like a lot of countries judicial systems, court rulings make up case law. Ok 100% liability appears isn't completely true. Even so, previous rulings have shown that even if it's not your fault, then if you're speeding above the recommended speed you can be found liable if the accident was likely be avoidable if you were doing the recommended speed.

So yes, there is case law that states the driver can be in some part at fault if you are doing above the recommended speed - notably the fact if the accident wouldn't have happened if you were doing the recommended speed. Thus exceeding the recommended speed and being involved in an accident that isn't your fault, you extremely likely to be found at fault to some degree. Which is the fundamental point that I was saying in my original post. All this is clearly stated in the wiki references and in many other links that can be found by looking.

I'm happy with both what my flat mate partner, AutoBild and case law has said. If you disagree, fine, I don't really care anymore to argue this further.

 

 

Most cases turn on their own facts.  Just because X is decided in one case, that is no reason for X to be decided in another case, unless X is a statement of principle, not a fact-specific conclusion.  In many cases, driving above a posted speed limit would be evidence of negligence, but not in every case.


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#37 ONLINE   chaseracer

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:31 PM

It was on an autobahn somewhere in eastern Germany that I established Vmax in my Blingo is actually 8mph more than Citroen will admit to...


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#38 OFFLINE   anonymous user

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:35 PM

I have NEVER exceeded the UK speed limit and moreover...


Nor me, so how I got a ticket for speeding on the M4 while driving a Land Rover is a complete mystery

#39 ONLINE   chaseracer

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:36 PM

Are you sure it wasn't 132mph in a Golf?


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#40 OFFLINE   anonymous user

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:41 PM

No definitely a Land Rover, I found it hard to believe that it had exceeded 80mph, but that's what happens when you are rushing to an emergency birthday party.

#41 ONLINE   hennabm

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:43 PM

I wouldn't want to see it brought in.

I too love maxing any car I take and been able to cover big distances very quickly.

Certainly since my first driving visits back in the 80s there is far less derestricted than there was. But there is more three lane now.

Yes I agree when an accident happens at high speed the outcome may be worse than at lower speed. But the driver training in Germany is better to begin with. They have mandatory lessons on autobahn use whereas in the UK no such mandated training exists.
Lane control used to be better in Germany but is worsening every time I go over. They seem to have caught the UK disease of staying out and not moving in.

You used to be able to let the car in front know by filling the mirrors with lights to let them know you wanted past.

Anyway for all that, keep the unrestricted.
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#42 OFFLINE   Breadvan72

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Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:48 PM

Autobahns in the early 90s were interesting.  You could be doing a factory limited 155 in a 3 Series and getting headlamp-flashed by 911s wanting to go faster, but the middle lane was full of Trabants doing 60.  Yikes.


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#43 OFFLINE   Jifflemon

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:15 AM

Imagine if they went for the autobahn system in the U.K., people would just go silly, taking their Audi A4s to 130mph for the laugh. It just wouldn't work here, there's too many 'silly' people.

 

I think they'd be a week or two of such sillyness; Then when the reality of the fuel cost comes home, everyone would be back down to current speeds.

 

Less time looking at the speedo and more time focusing on the road ahead is a good thing in my books.



#44 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:42 AM

Speedos read wildly out at those sort of speeds. If it says you are doing 120mph you are probably doing closer to 110mph.
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#45 OFFLINE   Sigmund Fraud

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:06 AM

I think the German people need to TAKE BACK CONTROL of their speed limits to prevent foreigners from speeding in their country etc. etc. etc.

 

 

On a more relevant note, I find the two-lane segments of the Autobahn a very dangerous place. Right lane is full of HGVs crawling along at 100km/h. You move over to the left to overtake at a sensible 130-140km/h and seconds later there's a nutter on your back bumper who has appeared out of nowhere, has basically had to do an emergency stop from 200+km/h, and is now so close to your bumper that he can read what song you're listening to on your radio display.

 

Multi-car pile-ups do happen, when the aforementioned nutter suddently reaches stationary traffic. They are not a pretty sight.

 

So, yeah, speed limits may be annoying to car-loving individuals, but as a public health measure they're pretty good.



#46 OFFLINE   Squire_Dawson

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:41 PM

IMHO driving at anything over 65MPH is not pleasurable. You have to contend with the middle-lane hoggers and constantly lane-change to get past people. This becomes very tiring after a while. But that is supposing you obey the first rule of the road, 'keep left'. I can sit in the inside lane at 60-65, fast enough to not be a nuisance to truckers or anyone, saving fuel and generally being less stressed. I find it incredibly fatiguing to drive at higher speeds because you have to concentrate a lot more, correct the steering more and plan farther in advance at a quicker mental speed. All that to arrive ~20 minutes sooner. In England you cannot just 'press on' any longer. Plus I can catch a 125 MPH train and have a snooze and not worry about some unpredictable imbecile drivers.


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#47 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 02:43 PM

Better late than never! It's awful driving fast at those speeds, the concentration you need is draining. Stick to 60-70, save fuel and listen to the play on Radio 4.
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#48 ONLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:52 PM

IMHO driving at anything over 65MPH is not pleasurable. You have to contend with the middle-lane hoggers and constantly lane-change to get past people. This becomes very tiring after a while. But that is supposing you obey the first rule of the road, 'keep left'. I can sit in the inside lane at 60-65, fast enough to not be a nuisance to truckers or anyone, saving fuel and generally being less stressed. I find it incredibly fatiguing to drive at higher speeds because you have to concentrate a lot more, correct the steering more and plan farther in advance at a quicker mental speed. All that to arrive ~20 minutes sooner. In England you cannot just 'press on' any longer. Plus I can catch a 125 MPH train and have a snooze and not worry about some unpredictable imbecile drivers.

 

 

I went down to Banbury and Rugby yesterday and to York today, mostly motorway. Radio 4 is your friend to take the pressure off (Women's hour, afternoon drama, Archers etc), but trying to keep a modern 6 speed car under 85 is a mental effort. That's why cruise is essential these days. The thought of having to suddenly stop from 110 on a wet motorway - or being directly in front of someone trying to stop from 110..............fuck that.


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#49 OFFLINE   sierraman

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 05:11 PM

Same with regenerating the DPF, how a lot of them are geared you need a good long stretch at 80/90+ in 4th.

#50 OFFLINE   New POD

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:30 PM

IMHO driving at anything over 65MPH is not pleasurable. You have to contend with the middle-lane hoggers and constantly lane-change to get past people. This becomes very tiring after a while. But that is supposing you obey the first rule of the road, 'keep left'. I can sit in the inside lane at 60-65, fast enough to not be a nuisance to truckers or anyone, saving fuel and generally being less stressed. I find it incredibly fatiguing to drive at higher speeds because you have to concentrate a lot more, correct the steering more and plan farther in advance at a quicker mental speed. All that to arrive ~20 minutes sooner. In England you cannot just 'press on' any longer. Plus I can catch a 125 MPH train and have a snooze and not worry about some unpredictable imbecile drivers.

 

You clearly have no motoring soul. Or you probably live South of erm Kendal. The further south you go the shitter driving becomes.

 

We recently had occasion to go to The Capital of Scotland from Miseryside on a Saturday,for a dirty 50th Birthday weekend,  coming back on the Monday.

 

All I can say is once past the turn off for the Lakes (Kendal) the roads are empty and to coin a pistonheads measurement system 99 leptons is probably quite nice in a car designed for 145 leptons. Once in Scotland the roads are long and straight and erm fun.  60 Mph on the A702, A72, A701, and A6094, felt very slow at times, and ridiculously fast at others (especially when the snow was coming sideways and there was a central hump of snow in the middle of the carriageway.

70 Mph on the A74(M) and the M6 feels very slow because NO traffic.


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#51 ONLINE   Cavcraft

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 09:40 PM

It's Germany, doesn't really effect us and not sure I'd want another 'foreign' country voting on our road system.

 

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#52 OFFLINE   Yoss

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:01 PM

You need to get above Fort William to experience proper Scottish roads. Then the traffic really thins out. And when you do come up behind someone at speed they pull right over and wave you past (by indicating left). They even have road signs encouraging such behaviour. "Frustration causes accidents, allow overtaking" or words to that effect. And people generally do.

I've been there a few times and it happens too often for it to be a coincidence. Even had a Scottish Citylink coach going up a long hill on the A87 wave me past. I couldn't see past him but he obviously could so I thought what the hell, he's either being helpful or wants to kill me.

But as soon as you get to Fort William it's full of tourists who don't understand the system and progress grinds to a halt.

I know we have a lot of members on here from proper northern Scotland and I envy you.
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#53 ONLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 15 February 2017 - 10:43 PM

Droving in the UK becomes a pleasure on the A82 just north of Dumbarton. Not fast driving, just good old fashioned motoring. Lovely.


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#54 OFFLINE   Squire_Dawson

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:01 PM

You clearly have no motoring soul. Or you probably live South of erm Kendal. The further south you go the shitter driving becomes.

 

We recently had occasion to go to The Capital of Scotland from Miseryside on a Saturday,for a dirty 50th Birthday weekend,  coming back on the Monday.

 

All I can say is once past the turn off for the Lakes (Kendal) the roads are empty and to coin a pistonheads measurement system 99 leptons is probably quite nice in a car designed for 145 leptons. Once in Scotland the roads are long and straight and erm fun.  60 Mph on the A702, A72, A701, and A6094, felt very slow at times, and ridiculously fast at others (especially when the snow was coming sideways and there was a central hump of snow in the middle of the carriageway.

70 Mph on the A74(M) and the M6 feels very slow because NO traffic.

 

My post referred to motorways, which are indeed soul-less.


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#55 OFFLINE   John F

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:50 PM

I enjoyed overtaking a police car whilst speed-testing my new* Opel C-Kadett 1.3 S (185 km/h, woohooo!) on the A9 Autobahn in the mid-1990s.


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Posted 16 February 2017 - 03:10 PM

I do have a rather heavy right foot most of the time but seeing that footage at 180 on the dual carriageway is a bit too mental for me. Maybe there should be some restriction even if it is to 155 which is what a lot of these moderns are limited to. Hopefully they won't bring anything in this year though as I am planning a European road trip in the summer and would love to have a go with the Porsche, if only briefly to see what it will do.


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#57 OFFLINE   xkjagnz

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 08:37 PM

You clearly have no motoring soul. Or you probably live South of erm Kendal. The further south you go the shitter driving becomes.

 

We recently had occasion to go to The Capital of Scotland from Miseryside on a Saturday,for a dirty 50th Birthday weekend,  coming back on the Monday.

 

All I can say is once past the turn off for the Lakes (Kendal) the roads are empty and to coin a pistonheads measurement system 99 leptons is probably quite nice in a car designed for 145 leptons. Once in Scotland the roads are long and straight and erm fun.  60 Mph on the A702, A72, A701, and A6094, felt very slow at times, and ridiculously fast at others (especially when the snow was coming sideways and there was a central hump of snow in the middle of the carriageway.

70 Mph on the A74(M) and the M6 feels very slow because NO traffic.

Feck I live in NZ you can't get much further south!!

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#58 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:07 PM

Autobahns in the early 90s were interesting.  You could be doing a factory limited 155 in a 3 Series and getting headlamp-flashed by 911s wanting to go faster, but the middle lane was full of Trabants doing 60.  Yikes.

 

 

I remember that - the closing speeds could be dizzying! Cars seemed to get a lot faster in the 90s -  150 was the reserve of exotics and V12 Jags, just ten years before. By the mid/late 90s, lots of cars could do 155.

 

I drove my own car (XJ6) flat out some years ago (naturally, compliant with conditions and legislation) - and was thoroughly amazed by how extraordinarily thirsty it was. It went through half a tank in about ten minutes! You know you're going too fast when the motorway/autobahn suddenly seems to have tighter bends... Reckless really.


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#59 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:09 PM

 

How did Junkman survive Austria in the 80's and 90's?

 

 

Nimbleness and a mighty Rover.


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#60 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 09:00 AM


I drove my own car (XJ6) flat out some years ago (naturally, compliant with conditions and legislation) - and was thoroughly amazed by how extraordinarily thirsty it was. It went through half a tank in about ten minutes! You know you're going too fast when the motorway/autobahn suddenly seems to have tighter bends... Reckless really.

 

 

What amazed me at 140 in a XJ40, is how quiet it still was! I was happy with that figure out of a 3.2 as well, it's what the book said it'd do.

 

As for bends...I've had that problem on the bike to the extent that I couldn't slow on the M1 because closing the throttle was making me drift off the road :D

 

Nowt wrong with doing 100-120 in/on something able to do such speeds & stop, I find it easier than driving slow because it's not boring. I wish I could find the 60's copy of 'Small Car' *or might have been car 'Car' where some bloke called Sterling Moss argues that driving too slow is dangerous because you're bored & don't pay attention properly.


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