Running a small petrol car vs Running a big car, on gas..

[DaveDorson]

OK so the flurry of Jaaaggss and my love of big cats has got me thinking that for the commute to work each day, rather than being miserable in a 1.2 3 cylinder 9N polo with a blowing exhaust, cosmetic challenges and poor tyres, in need of a console bush, I could probably run something like a late 90's X308 on LPG, and see similar returns.

 

my daily commute is an A road (the A43), or if I decide to go off piste, some lovely winding B roads, that cut through rural Lincolnshire, Rutland and Northants.

 

I do about 17 miles to and from work each day.

 

I don't really use the car to do town work.. I've got other cars I can use for that, her new beetle would do the job.. as would the Fronterror if I needed to move things about.

 

So would a Jaaaggg really be sensible?

There's two LPG stations en route to work, neither are expensive..

 

A converted X308 with an alusil engine and steel tensioners wouldn't give me a lot of grief would it?

 

Or am I being insane.. 

[Eddie Honda]

Yeah a Jaaaaaaag is sensible. You are not being insane. Gerrit bought.

[DaveDorson]

If it's sensible..

 

What's a green tagged engine (with paperwork from Jaaagg to say the motor was swapped to alusil) Saphire Blue X308 Sov worth with cream leather?  Steel tensioners, recent brakes and gearbox rebuild, recent front wings properly painted and repaired and properly painted and sealed rear arches (with photo documents of the work) on fully working, seq. LPG worth?

 

Proper tyres fitted, all the suspension bushes replaced and looked after my a classic restoration company director for the last few years.. apparently it's had some welding done underneath but to a good standard, and that's also been properly sealed in and coated to stop any tin worm coming back.

[sierraman]

A good friend of mine had an LPG equipped Jag, in a round about way it got the equivalent cost wise of it doing 30mpg on unleaded so for 4.0 quite respectable.

[richardthestag]

Having run a Range Rover 3.9 on LPG for 10 years and 120k miles I must say LPG wins for me.It has averaged 15.5mpg on LPG over that time. Around town I get 180miles from 60 litres of LPG and on a run anything up to 220miles. The best economy I ever had was 17mpg so I dont worry about truck bothering and crooze at 70-75 on motorways maybe up to a little more when getting out of the Audi lane.

 

Overall running costs over the years have been small - but I do do all the work on it myself. I couldnt have done this if I relied on a garage to fix niggles and service it.

 

BUT and this is a big BUTT

 

There are many "pro" LPG fitters out there but the government has yet to apply any common sense to standards that must be followed. Hence there are cowboys and disaster stories, certificate of compliance is what mr insurance needs and while some insurers run a mile I have no problems with Admiral, et al getting insured.

 

I used Tinleytech for the kit who are awesome

 

Also my dad LPG'd his 3.7 pez Jeep, it turned out to be incompatible and destroyed heads and valves within 40k miles!! so Seek advise on running the Jag v8 on LPG before you make the lunge.

 

That said my dad's (was supposed to be mine but hey ho) 4litre v8 Jag does high 20's on a run and low 20s around town driving considerately but enjoying the woofle and to be honest that = the running costs of the Range Rover so I personally wouldn't bother with LPG'ing it.

 

 

[richardthestag]

The only real unknown big ticket items on the x308 are chain tensioners which you have sorted and the autopox which is sealed for life but apparently that life can be anything from 60k miles. You can get the fluid and filter changed and the process is straightforwards.

 

Used spare parts supply on ebay is gr9. 

 

places like SNG Barrett etc sell qualitay or cheap spares but clearly state what is OEM and what is pattern

 

These cars are as smooth as you like with effortless powa on the road. 

 

Dads was £700 but that was because it had short MOT and NO service history. we took the risk and the dealer recognised that

 

for a sorted car I dunno but ever at a couple of bags wcpgw :/

[rainagain]

Had anyone done an lpg conversion themselves? The kits on eBay look good and are pretty cheap. The ones I was looking at use the factory ecu to fire the injectors with their own ecu to add a trim at certain rpms if required

[barefoot]

Wuffle and waft...

 

It's the future.

[alcyonecorporation]

Smol car with beefy engine.

 

Worst of both worlds. SKILLZ.

[billyboy406v6]

You are not insane, get the pics and kollection thread up now !!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[castros_bro]

Had anyone done an lpg conversion themselves? The kits on eBay look good and are pretty cheap. The ones I was looking at use the factory ecu to fire the injectors with their own ecu to add a trim at certain rpms if required

 

I have a full kit for a 4 cyl  ovloV via FESAutogas  but I was dealing with toxic and explosive gas equipment installation/testing so have some relevant experience.   The LPG burn rate differed from the petrol vapour burn rate so there should be a change in the ignition timing curve, also a lot of kit start on petrol and then switch to LPG when the engine is warm.  I had the Autoshite Focus which had the "Ford" dual fuel LPG from new using a pumped liquid LPG injection rather then the more  common gas LPG injection, this doesn't need a warm engine to run and produced more power on LPG then Petrol.  I would recommend borrowing a jag with a similar system to the one you want before committing money as there is often a compromise or two which may p**s you off .

[dollywobbler]

If you can find a car already converted, then that's probably better than getting an LPG kit fitted. Otherwise, the payback period is quite enormous. Being boringly sensible, a Jag has the potential to rack up some seriously large bills aside from fuel, in a way a Polo probably doesn't.

[sporty-shite]

Smol car with beefy engine.

 

BEST of both worlds. SKILLZ.

Fixed. 

 

There are some cheap hot hatches and coupes doing the rounds at the moment, which are pretty well-specced. Granted, the WAFT_VALUE is less, but you'll still get decent MPGs and a fun commute.

[gordonbennet]

From experience Merc's take extremely well to LPG, my W124 320 coupe was converted probably 6/7 years ago, couple of years ago the CHG started leaking, they all do that at 100k sir, and my MB indy who did the job noted the valves and engine inside were in superb condition (begrudgingly cos he's never forgiven me for converting it, he's a purist), he also slipped a new timing chain and oil cooler in while the engine was stripped.

It will be for sale when the weather breaks, but as its one of the last of 124 coupes off the line and in superb condition it probably isn't really AS fodder so probably not of any interest here.

 

However, German engines with their hard valve seats appear to take extremely well to the conversions, mine probably runs smoother on gas than it does petrol.

 

Yes fuel economy wise a good move, but you have to be bloody sure of the car first cos spending up to £1750 (what mine cost to convert) means a commitment to keep the car a long time.

 

We converted SWMBO Scooby Outback H6 nearly 3 years ago, that has been a good car too and i'd recommend one without hesitation, i don't think its as happy on gas as the Benz mind, the Merc is as quick the Scoob loses a tiny bit of sparkle, and with Jap stuff Flashlube is a must or OMGVSR, i have Flashlube on the Benz as well but its really there for belt and braces effect.

 

I have bought a used LPG before, it wasn't running quite right and the MItsi dealer proved utterly bloody useless, but the indy who converted the Merc soon found the problem, mild VSR which was cured by valve adustment and fitting a Flashlube kit, i suspect most of the LPG'd cars for sale have some sort of running problem, mostly due to not keeping the flashlube topped up, if the bastards can't be arsed to check their oil till the bloody light comes on what hope checking the valve luber?

 

I love LPG, but its not a fuel for everyone IMHO, bit like running veg oil in a Diesel, you've got to think about things a bit more.

 

If we didn't have the dogs i'd keep the coupe and run it forever, but if i wanted an MB non estate and LPG convert it, i'd buy a 2008/9 C280 saloon, best of all worlds.

[Guest Hooli]

Waftage is always the way forward

[richardthestag]

Had anyone done an lpg conversion themselves? The kits on eBay look good and are pretty cheap. The ones I was looking at use the factory ecu to fire the injectors with their own ecu to add a trim at certain rpms if required

 

Re cheap kits on the bay, just run and dont look back. 

 

unless you like driving around with a large bomb in the shape of 60 or so litres of heavily volatile gas in a tank pressured at 10ish BAR .

 

Buy proper stuff from professionals. Google LPG explosion on Youtube for shits and giggles

 

I installed my kit, bought from tinleytech. They sell kits but never used to install them. My Rangie has a single point closed loop system, which means the LPG feeds into a single point - the Plenum chamber. and regulates the amount by taking a reading from the lambda sensors.

 

This ^^ setup is ok for older cars BUT complex electronic ignition such as the Jag V8 will need a more complex and expensive multipoint system.

[richardthestag]

[Bfg]

I had LPG on my Scimitar with the 3 litre Essex lump and auto box - neither of which are reknown for economy. The saving in the cost of LPG worked out the equivalent of 40mpg combined motorway and normal daily use.  The car started more easily than on petrol and was smoother around town.  Power was down by about 10% which was only really noticed when you booted it or was towing a trailer with two m/c's up hills and around tight country lanes, at these times I simply switched over to petrol.   The spark plugs were a perfect colour when running on LPG. Fuel stations were not really a problem around here, the local Shell garage and even Morrisons have an LPG pump, and there was rarely a queue for that pump. 

 

Overall I liked it (but not the Scimitar's drive)  and wanted to go that route when I replaced it with a classic 3.8 litre Jag s-type.  I got quotes and (for the relatively low mileage I do) estimated the cost of having the conversion professional done would have paid for itself in 3 - 4 years.  The early S-type has plenty of space in its boot to take a decent sized tank behind the rear bulkhead.  As an engineer, I considered doing the job myself but insurance companies want the installation to be certified, and in the end decided just to bite the bullet and have it done for me.  Unfortunately the gearbox started to play up and its rebuild turned out to be expensive and a lot of hassle (with the garage who took the box out), the car's paint was damaged and I realised that I simply couldn't afford to run that class of car, so sold it to someone who could.  He phoned me up a year later and loves it.  Bottom line though was that I never had the Lpg conversion done on that car but did the homework.

 

Hope that helps

[DaveDorson]

The Jag I've been looking at is already converted using a seq. Injection setup that was installed by the owner, purchased from Tinley Tech  

[richardthestag]

get it bought then!

[DodgeRover]

Most of the lpg explosion videos on youtube are caused deliberately - if a tank is in a fire there is a lead plug which will melt releasing the gas in a controlled if spectacular manner or a simple over pressure device which will vent until a safe pressure is reached. Big jet of burning flame but no Big Bang noise to get youtube views.

To get an explosion you would have to do something that circumvented the safety features.

 

An LPG tank is probably safer to be trundling about with in the back than a 1mm thick petrol tank with 100 ish litres of highly flammable liquid inside.

[DaveDorson]

It's being considered.

 

Thing is I'd need to be looking to use it every day.  I'm beginning to think all sensible and that a warm hatchback from the early 2000's might be a better plan.

 

I'm after something that's not dog eggs, that can seat me and a few mates comfortably, that I can commute in, and that I'll enjoy.

 

And, because I'm a bit of a petrol head and like stuff somewhat, but not entirely lairy, something with a sporty moniker.

 

I've ruled out anything from the VW Audi Group, because turbo's.  That also rules out the hotter of the Astra SRi's.

 

I don't want a diesesal.

 

I remember my mate having a BMW Mini One when they were new.. and the back seats being nothing short of farcical.

 

The Clio 172's are either dead, close to dead, or just a bit too small, but I reckon they'd be hugely rewarding to drive.

 

Civic Type R has an image problem, they're still expensive cars, parts are horror show expensive if they ever go wrong.

 

That doesn't really leave a lot does it?

 

Focus ST170?, Celica VVL-I 190, both apparently a bit wet unless you wring the neck out of them.  The Celica isn't really my cuppa either.  I could live with a nice, unmodified Focus ST170 mind.

 

MGZR160 is a car I've long fancied, and I had a 1.4 105bhp version that was fun enough, but silly things broke on it.. I'd want to be using it every day.  I'd feel happier that a Focus would get me there and back daily without fuss, especially if I buy a late one.

 

And I'm after something that I can find a home for later on, in a few years, when I've decided I want to have a proper mid life crisis and buy something like a Hondull S2000.

[cros]

The Prins list of cars not suitable for LPG includes most stuff from 2006 and includes lots of Jaguar Land Rover products and, surprisingly, Mercedes. There have been so many disasters that you need to tread very carefully with whatever you buy. I've been running LPG vehicles for a 12 years and have never had any valve problems despite not using Flashlube- an extra cost.  However fixing burnt valves on a B series or 4 cylinder pushrod Landrover engine is a very different proposition than a modern Jaguar. I also think that  there are enough problems with the existing electronics on cars without adding all the paraphernalia to enable the use of LPG. If I wanted something huge and wafty and reliable I'd be looking at a nice solid Yank V8 on LPG. If that Jag really works so well why is it for sale?

 

PS, my P4 now on on LPG again and is pretty good. As Gordonbennet mentioned theres an added bonus of smoothness on gas, useful on a big 4 cylinder. There are mixers that mean you don't have to lose performance but I'd avoid anything with a piss-pot sized tank as filling up every 100 miles will be a pain. Many conversions have tanks that are far too small, especially if they're those donut things.

[New POD]

If you can find a car already converted, then that's probably better than getting an LPG kit fitted. Otherwise, the payback period is quite enormous. Being boringly sensible, a Jag has the potential to rack up some seriously large bills aside from fuel, in a way a Polo probably doesn't.

 

I was thinking about investing in LPG for my Omega, but given that I've only done 5000 miles since I got it at the end of September, I'm also worried at the payback period.  20000K miles a year at 28 mpg.  What would I save in a year ?

[New POD]

 

 

I remember my mate having a BMW Mini One when they were new.. and the back seats being nothing short of farcical.

 

.

 

I've never found them that bad. I have travelled over 11 miles in the back once. Boot is very small though.

[dollywobbler]

I was thinking about investing in LPG for my Omega, but given that I've only done 5000 miles since I got it at the end of September, I'm also worried at the payback period.  20000K miles a year at 28 mpg.  What would I save in a year ?

 

£3826 a year on unleaded, £1880 on LPG at current average prices. On that basis, it makes sense (assuming you keep the car for at least a year, and do actually cover 20,000 miles in it).

[DaveDorson]

I've never found them that bad. I have travelled over 11 miles in the back once. Boot is very small though.

 

I'd need pretty much both to be reasonable.. Sarah's always got a load of theatre kit, as do her friends when I collect them from rehearsals and so on.

 

Which unfortunately rules the Mini out.

 

So far, I had to say it, a late Focus ST170 is looking like a sensible choice.

They're also considered a bit poo by the hot hatch brigade, meaning they're cheap, and far less likely to have been barried by the Halfords Mafia. 

[AMC Rebel]

That Russian LPG explosion didn't look too bad - no-one hurt.

[New POD]

£3826 a year on unleaded, £1880 on LPG at current average prices. On that basis, it makes sense (assuming you keep the car for at least a year, and do actually cover 20,000 miles in it).

 

Point me to the PROFESSIONALS then. 

[Eddie Honda]

Point me to the PROFESSIONALS then.

They'll be over after the flames have gone out on this Vauxhall Ventora...