Roffle NOW WITH ADDED ROFFLING!!! An Englishman's home may be he castle, but his driveway can't be used as a (alleged) forecourt.

[bangernomics]

Had plenty of fun with planners myself over the years (mostly for advertising hoardings) and the one thing that strikes me about the last letter is that at no point do they tell you what planning section you are contravening.

 

That's very unusual and smacks of nonsense. Now the best advice is usually paid for, but if you have a decent buildings and contents insurance policy then you're most likely to have insurance for building disputes. You need to clarify what you have now.

 

You also need to respond quickly and decisively clarifying that you don't have someone to deal with this if you don't and aren't able to. Wriggle room is not your friend you need to act.

 

Also worth pinging a good few FOI requests into the council asking some pertinent questions about historical planning related complaints as they're dealt with by the same idiots and it'll give them an indication that you are not a pushover and it'll wind them up that you're questioning them. It's known as discovery, or asking what they've got before you chance your hand. That's what they're doing to you presently or there would be a contravention notice in your hand.

 

So in summary

 

Check cover

 

Ask who can help

 

Act quickly

 

Ask the right questions

 

And also ask yourself if you need the vehicles in question. £400 isn't a lot of a lawyers time (about 7 hours for a cheap one and about 4 for an average one).

 

From the stress levels you mention, I'd be asking myself if I really need it and the cars. There's right and wrong, justice and injustice and there's feeling stressed and trapped too and that won't go away. There's always more shitters to be had around the corner.

[Dave_Q]

Whatever one might think about the number of cars FFS owns, there is an important point of principle here that a person should be able to do whatever they like on their own land provided it doesn't impinge on a neighbours ability to enjoy their property.

 

There is no fupping way on this earth that parking intact, cared for elderly fiats on ones own drive is in any way affecting his neighbours.

 

Without wishing to sound alarmist, I don't want to see this become a new precedent, "well in the case of FFS vs Calderdale, 4 cars was considered a reasonable amount" etc...

[garbaldy]

As some pics showed ffs cars parked on the road and was it not one of his neighbours mouthed of about this I suspect the nosey neighbours thinking along the lines of,

if he didn't have so many cars parked in the drive he wouldn't have to also hog the roadside, my guess is it is this alone that has the neighbours back up,

 

I'm still not sure how they have managed to get the council to do anything about it though as they usually can't be arsed.

[eddyramrod]

Whatever one might think about the number of cars FFS owns, there is an important point of principle here that a person should be able to do whatever they like on their own land provided it doesn't impinge on a neighbours ability to enjoy their property.

 

There is no fupping way on this earth that parking intact, cared for elderly fiats on ones own drive is in any way affecting his neighbours.

 

Without wishing to sound alarmist, I don't want to see this become a new precedent, "well in the case of FFS vs Calderdale, 4 cars was considered a reasonable amount" etc...

I totally agree. 

You choose your home carefully, in a nice place, with enough room for a few cars around you because you've spent your life messing with old cars, and what happens?  Some NIMBY with a bit of clout complains to the council and forces you to slash your fleet, which ALWAYS results in wastage and a huge financial loss, because you never get back what you've invested.  Not to mention the damage to your mental health from the stress of fighting the unexpected battle, the depression that comes of losing and the paranoia that develops immediately: which neighbour was it?  Who can I trust?  What's next?

Of course NIMBY doesn't give a shit about that as long as all is right in his world.  He has no conscience whatsoever, like so many humans.  My estimate, as an observer: 95%+.

 

A reasonable number of cars is a number that gives you a warm feeling of enjoyment.  Whether it's 4 or 44 doesn't matter.

 

Have we found our venue for ShiteFest 17?

[cms206]

Put me down for a tenner for the legal fund too, this shitty situation needs sorted by legal bods and if we can help I'm sure we will.

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Cheggers]

Also happy to contribute to the legal fund - Find out how much an initial consultation will be and let us know

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chaseracer]

I'll chuck in some folding.  It might be old Fiats in Yorkshire today, but "tomorrow" - who knows...?

[For Fiats Sake]

Thanks again for the support.  I've passed the emails along to our tame lawyer friend and they will write to the cuntcil council on my behalf, which is a huge relief as my replies just seem to have annoyed them.

 

I would happily settle on having 6.  4 causes me problems as it means they are asking me to dispose of cars which have cost me a lot of money.

 

I don't know where folks have got this £400 valuation for each of my cars.  

 

Five have had approx £20,000 between them, only the Uno about £700 and the project car £500.  This doesn't include my daily modern.  Oh and I've forgot the parade which owes me a grand all told!

This is a collection, the only ones I can pass off without huge loss are the Uno and project car, the parade.

The garaged mk1 is valued at around £2-3,000.

 

I've put my heart, soul and all of my inheritance into buying a home for me and my cars and have already sold off 2 that I couldn't justify keeping again for a loss of hundreds of pounds.

 

Also I've spent the best part of £10k building a garage, updating a carport (which leaks thanks to a shit builder) and widening the drive.

 

I've never added it all up before and right now I'm bloody angry that all this is potentially for nothing.

 

The mk1 is the only car likely to realise it's true value so that will have to go onto a classics site.

Parade and Uno I have the least attachment too but I'm keeping the project car or else life will become bloody dull.

 

The donor car needs the engine removing and scrapping, does anyone have a hoist I can borrow.

 

I'd sell the modern but as it's a recent purchase I'd lose too much money, as I have on the previous two moderns, twice bitten etc.

 

So it's not just about rusty old cars with no value.  I'd rather sell up and buy a big shed, live in the caravan with the cars than be forced to get rid of them all.

 

Now I'm going to be late for work, Fuckstixs.

[bub2006]

Screw this for a lark. Fiat, the letter dies look as it's on dodgy ground as stated above. No one should be able to dictate what you can and can't do on your property, or even cars parked on the street if legal and not causing obstructions. Seek legal advice. Please. It will only make you ill otherwise. They are your hobby and transport. I'm in for crowd funding too,gladly chuck some in pot for your cause.

[bub2006]

As for hoist, where are You? I'll come assist with engine removal etc. Your neighbours will love* my van.

[They_all_do_that_sir]

Worth annoying local farmers / land owners for reasonably priced storage, I've heard of people doing this with mixed success.

 

I'd happily donate a tenner to your legal fund though it sounds like a shiter is already sorting you.

 

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

[Parky]

I would be inclined to send the council pictures of a scrapyard and your driveway. And then ask them if they sincerely believe they look the same. And demand a written reply. That way they will look properly cuntish should litigation follow and a judge asks them to explain how a scrapyard and your drive look the same.

 

Unless your cars are stored on top of each other with the wheels missing, in which case this is a flawed statement.

 

I would be seriously pissed if the council said my tidy drive with cars on looked like a scrapyard. Fuck it, get a pic of the council car park and write a complaint saying that it looks like a scrapyard....

[omegod]

Is it possible that one of your neighbour's is a mason and is yanking the chain of some council official brother to get your car's removed? The letter say's far more by what it doesn't actually say, and legal speak wise, is looser than a pair of Captain 70's bell bottomed flares. 

[rantingYoof]

I AM NOW ARMED WITH THE QUOTE BUTTON AND RED FONT!

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

"Thank you for your e-mail, the contents of which are noted.

I understand that your personal circumstances are difficult and have no wish to impose additional stress, I also appreciate that you are trying to address the issues, however it can not remain unresolved indefinitely. If you have anyone else who can act on your behalf I would be happy to deal with that person.

 

The complaint(s) (this is important - seems like whoever has complained has rallied around to get supporters) related to the amount number of vehicles you have parked at the property, making the site look like a scrap yard,  and the adverse impacts this has on the residential amenity. Right, okay, so notwithstanding the subjectivity around the term 'scrap yard' are we to understand that the breach in planning regulations relate to Section 215 of the 1990 T&CPA 1990, otherwise known as 'untidy land'? This is exactly what this sentence is inferring; that your driveway/property/garden and the vehicles are impacting upon the character of the area, which is unacceptable and considered a breach of planning regulations.

 

In the terms of planning legislation, as previously explained, parking cars on a domestic drive would not normally require express planning permission. It would be considered a use incidential to the enjoyment of the dwelling house, provided the number of vehicles are considered to be reasonable for personal domestic enjoyment. It is the amount number of vehicles you are keeping at the property that is causing the issue and has resulted in a breach of planning control. Having between 10 and 12 vehicles kept on the land is clearly far in excess of what would be reasonable for personal domestic enjoyment. Surely it would be over five which is considered excessive if you want it to be reduced to four? So it's a change of use breach then? The number of vehicles is considered excessive to the point where the council believes a change of use of the land from C3 dwellinghouse to...B8 storage? Sui generis (car dealership)? has taken place. I suppose it can theoretically be both, but the council's argument would be strongest if they adopted one approach and stuck to it, rather than firing blindly and hoping a bullet hits. The Council is trying to achieve a situation whereby you have no more  than 4 vehicles parked at the site. It appears that you are unable to do this within a reasonable time scale. No, you are hedging your bets and hoping either the complainant goes away or that the alleged contravenor cannot be bothered with the hassle and rolls over.

 

What I need from you is a commitment to reduce the number of vehicles to no more than 4 no later than 31^st March 20167. You have to be aware that if you fail to comply with this request then it is likely that an enforcement notice would be served. If this course of action becomes necessary I will fully explain the process and procedure at that time, but I hope that course of action can be avoided. Of course you don't want to pursue this action, because you are quite certain that any appeal against an enforcement notice would fail spectacularly as you find it impossible to rationalise or defend the decision to decide that four is the 'right' number of vehicles to have on the driveway of a domestic household and that just over three months is a reasonable time frame to do this in, or indeed find it very difficult to relate a situation where a high number of vehicles in a presumably non-abandoned and useable condition resembles that of a 'scrap yard', where cars are stacked high, without wheels and clearly not in useable forms.

 

I trust that the above clarifies the position for you and look forward to hearing from you again." 'Please just do what we ask without resistance so we can close this and tell the complainant to jog on.'

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

I am glad you're getting a tame lawyer on the case, although I would also be inclined to seek planning-specific legal advice if you can. I obviously don't want to add to your stress woes but I don't want to be disingenuous either; it's important you continue to get your lawyer-friend on it, and if they're doing it 'as a favour' then it may not be prioritised, and this case should be prioritised - if your mate can't do it I'd seriously invest anything you have in getting a planning consultant to look at it. It sounds like the good folk of Autoshite Help-a-Friend TrademarkSymbol are willing to lend a hand if this becomes necessary.

 

One thing I would absolutely and categorically demand to know in any immediate and future correspondence, either via your tame lawer or yourself, is...

 

Under what act/section is this planning enforcement case being brought about on? Is it Section 215 (untidy land), or a potential change of use?

 

The council should have to tell you exactly why you are being investigated; the police don't exactly arrest someone and say 'Well, you were being a dick in that bar and then we suspect you were driving dangerously too, but you'll find out why you're being thrown in a cell when we decide to proceed with pressing charges'.

 

If it's under Section 215, the council have the powers to come and 'tidy' the land and then charge you. In this instance, they'll arrive and flat-bed your vehicles away (presumably). If it's an unauthorised change of use then it'll be a normal enforcement notice giving you x months to comply formally and if you don't, it'll become a criminal charge that could end up in the Mags court. I'm not suggesting you won't comply of course; just that the council need to be aware that you will do everything you can to avoid this outcome but need them to be as leniant as can be with any deadlines they give.

 

Ultimately, my gut tells me that this still feels like a planning dept. hedging bets and hoping that you roll over and comply, but obviously I cannot comment fully as I have no idea what your existing situation is and exactly what the enforcement officer has seen and interpreted (although obviously 'scrap yard' is a pretty harsh and undiplomatic term for a planning authority to use; I reckon that's the planning enforcement officer repeating the words used by the complainant. If this is the case then it's mighty unprofessional as it is not showing impartiality. I would also raise this in any future correspondence as this sort of thing wouldn't look good in a planning ombudsman investigation - if they truly are regretful for causing you stress then they should refrain from such terms).

 

 

[chaseracer]

^ Excellent appraisal!

[Guest bangerfan101]

While it may not be helpful to your case.

 

With careful planning over a week or so. Having a taxi booked from every minicab company in the the local area, turning upfor a big return trip to say Leeds. Or even better Manchester Airport. Turn up at the nosey cunts house one afternoon, closely followed by 3 or 4 big takeaway orders.

 

Maybe While your tinkering in your driveway.

 

Fuck it why not top it off with a 14 yard skip.

 

Then send a picture to the council asking if this is enough cars for their personal pleasure, and the commotion is bringing on your anxiety

[For Fiats Sake]

Thanks folks, your ranting on my behalf is both amusing and informative!

 

A letter has been prepared on my behalf so hopefully that will give the council something to think about.

 

I'm in Halifax Bub, I'm going to have a look at disconnecting more bits from the car tomorrow if the weathers good, if not it will be during the three days off over baby jeesus's alleged birthday.

 

Hopefully I can put this to the back of my mind for a few days now.

[bub2006]

Halifax isn't too far. I'm off work Thursday and Friday I think this week, don't know about Christmas yet. If assistance is required I'm more than happy to arrange a convenient time for us both for me to plod over and swear at Italian tin with you.

[doobietoo]

Now that the council have put a figure on the number of cars ANY household can own ie 4 I would suggest it is time to contact both the normal and the motoring press. I am sure most would be very interested. Having a few journalists ringing up to ask for a statement on why the council are suggesting that the maximum number of cars any household can own is 4 may well cause a fairy abrupt change in their attitude.

[For Fiats Sake]

Thanks Bub, I'm working those days and all the other Thurs/Fri, I tend to get Mondays off thought whenever I arrange anything for a Monday I get given a different day off!

 

I'll probably book sometime off in February (not allowed holidays during the Sales period) and get it done then, or even March, anytime up to the 31st apparently.

 

I'm also thinking in enclosing the carport from prying eyes by building a pair of gates across the drive between my house and next doors, I'll need the space to to store the extra bits and pieces generated by scrapping the donor/ clearing the garage out.

 

I'm going to put a last call out on here for the Uno.

[rantingYoof]

If you do build gates and stuff, bear in mind you are obviously being watched like a hawk by someone who essentially wants to make your life problematic.

 

I'm not saying you wouldn't, but a belts-and-braces approach to everything you do should be adopted now just to ensure no more ammo is perceived by whoever it is that is unhappy with you locally.

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/20/fences_gates_and_garden_walls

 

Check your deeds. There may be a 'no fences/gates/walls' clause on it - no enclosures in front of the dwelling (I'm not sure where the gates would be in relation to the house). This would NOT be a planning matter but the neighbour could still use it to their advantage.

[DodgeRover]

Any updates on this?

 

First they came for the Fiats and I didn't speak out etc

[Parky]

Wouldn't it be nice if FFS could stash his cars somewhere safe. And temporarily stash four absolute shitters on his drive instead! Four old smoky yank tanks would do

 

I too will chip in some crispy folding. Wonder if any hearing would be public? Be fantastic if Autoshite a.k.a Shiters for Justice could turn up dressed as Mike Brewer or William Woolard and hassle the officials by yelling "'old out yer 'ands!" During procedures

 

Obviously Dollywobbler is a press person, Angry Sheep too. Be a good potential article for Practical Classics if things progress

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

 

 

One thing that struck me the other day is that the neighbour opposite the complainant has 3 caravans in his garden.  

 

 

Have you considered torching one of them?

[Dave_Q]

If I was FFS's lawyer my first instruction would be to stop talking about the ongoing potential legal proceedings on the interwebz.

 

Hope all is going well sir.

[martybabes]

Matters are in hand.

 

I would prefer there to be no further discussion for the time being.  Your understanding will be much appreciated.

[For Fiats Sake]

Just a little update.

 

I got rid of the mk1 (at a friends unit awaiting a buyer upon which my Y10 takes its place), sold the Regatta and Uno and the Parade.  Donated the donor car to an interesting project.  Took in the Y10.

 

Had a communication from the council again (swiftly posted onto our tame law person) going over all the old ground again, planning contravention, dealing, etc etc  Threats of fines etc etc.

 

Great, just kick me whilst I'm still struggling (just got back to regular work after a couple of months on the sick with depression) not that they give a damn.

 

 

[NorthernMonkey]

So having taken 1 in but got rid of 4, they're still moaning?

 

Tell them that if they're not careful, you'll sell your house to me...I've currently got nine outside plus another seven hidden around the village.

 

Your neighbours don't know they're fucking born...

[egg]

Glad to hear you're feeling a bit better, keep going, we get it on here .

[Dave_Q]

I know you can really do without the hassle, but if I were you I would be tempted to just let the feckers take you to court and try to prove that parking 5 or 6 elderly cars on your own drive is in any way a breach of planning regs.

 

Have you got someone responding to the letter for you?