primitive vehicles ?

[Tamworthbay]

I had a few Minis back in the early 90s.

Great fun to drive but a bloody disaster to work on. Subframe and body rot to rival a Ka, if the engine steady bars are knackered the carb clatters into the bulkhead and bends the needle jet thing, heater valves that never work properly and the 1275GT always seems crap on fuel.

If a Modern was that bad they'd call it Laguna.

all comes down to lack of maintenance, minis kept going for,so,long as they are such a great little car. I have done about 200,000 miles in minis over the years and very few problems. They do rust but are about as simple as it gets to fix, everything is cheap (apart from early cooper specific bits). Perfect starter classic alongside the MGB GT, GT might edge it based in slightly easier maintenance but points are in a pig awkward spot and rust is far more complicated to sort.

[Pete-M]

Don't get me started on the MGB GT. Still the worst car I've ever owned, and I had a Rover 827....

[sierraman]

Find me a man whose done 150k in a Mini without 2-3 engine overhauls. They were good in their day but I'd soon get fed up of it not starting in the wet or the rain pissing in or constantly having to have it welded up. As a hobby as you say - yes a great car for a summers day or a second car but everyday I'd start to resent it.

[Pete-M]

I bought my first mini in 1988. RWM248K, an 850 in Pogweasel. One of those ones with the huge gear lever. It cost me around £250 with a few months tax and test and I finally thought I'd be free to go off on missions like any self respecting 17 year old with their first car should.

 

Things didn't turn out that way. The alternator gave up, followed in quick succession by the battery. Replacing them wasn't too bad, even replacing the battery cables wasn't a nightmare. Took me a week or two to get the £25 for the bits from the scrappy. If memory serves me right I was on £35/week as a YTS at the time.

 

Once fitted I went off to Southport in it, that's about a 35 mile round trip from here. It was difficult to gauge how fast the thing was going because the speedo needle would jump from say 20 mph - 50 mph - 20 mph if the car was doing anything between 10-60 mph. It was merely a rough indication that the actual car was moving. A pointless indication as the bloody exhaust downpipe cracked within about 10 miles of leaving the house anyway. The brakes pulled randomly to the left or right depending on temperature, how hard the pedal was pressed and how long the car had been moving for. The clutch bite point would also move randomly, sometimes it would be nice and other times like an on/off switch. This didn't help the engine steady bar or exhaust system. What helped less was the misfiring that would happen on a damp morning. Hence the bottom of the carb ending up bent against the bulkhead. Which caused another fuel leak and very erratic throttle response.

 

Then a passenger decided it would be wise to put their seat belt on - which meant that they got a close inspection of the lower seat belt mounting point as it decided not to be at one with the rest of the shell. That resulted in my first MIG welding experience. The hole had got quite large, which meant replacing pretty much the entire nearside floor pan.

 

Eventually the thing was all back together and working. Carb still leaked, but I'd bodged together an engine steady bar and welded up the exhaust. So far I'd owned the car for about a month and spent all my wages trying to fix the bloody thing. The remaining few quid I had left was spent on bus fares going to work and insurance for the mini which was about £450.

 

Eventually I got it working, replaced the carb, shoved a rubber glove around the dizzy cap to try to keep the water out, found a clothes peg strong enough to keep the choke out in the morning, found a heater setting that seemed reasonable (after freeing off the valve, replacing the leaky matrix, blower motor, heater pipes and thermostat). Replacement brake shoes, slave and master cylinder were found and fitted and the Mini of Doom was almost usable.

 

Then the radiator went. Not for the first time as some ham fisted Klutz had previously rounded off all the bolts on the radiator, fan shroud and fan. Swore at it for a good few hours whilst shredding my hands trying to get it all out in order to replace.

 

Eventually the thing worked, so I swapped it for a rusty Mk2 Escort which never gave me a moment's grief (other than when welding it together).

 

OK. Mine was a shit Mini, but it wasn't an unusual one. It was a 15 year old, £200 snotter of the type I imagine plenty of us have started our driving lives in. The modern equivalent is probably a V reg Ka with scabby sills and rattly valve gear, but I suspect the Ka would give a lot less grief.

[RayMK]

I tend to avoid cars which are boring to drive, and that includes most modern stuff.  I prefer cars which have interesting engineering, although there have been exceptions e.g. the Stellars.  In 2007 I was quite taken with a Mitsubishi i, a 660cc rear engined turbocharged automatic (conventional slush box). Bought as an ex-demonstrator with 650 miles on the clock, I kept it for 7 years, during which I covered 86,000 miles with complete reliability.  It was practical, cruised happily at motorway speeds even on the hilly sections and returned 45mpg.  Servicing was by main dealer every 6,000 miles (expensive!). Then it broke.  It ingested one of it's turbo blades, or rather, a blade fractured and buggered the waste gate.  The bill to fix it would have been £1200.  If the car had had the character I was expecting from a rear engined car, I would have forked out and kept it.  It simply did not.  Like most moderns, it was coldly efficient and despite the configuration was engineered to understeer.  This gave it a slightly clumsy feel.  It also rusted. I told my local garage to dispose of it after I had paid the £70 to investigate why it had stopped working.  Someone (not the garage) did eventually get it back on the road but I have no regrets. Back in 1975 I bought a brand new 2cv6.  It had character in abundance, was practical and averaged 36mpg (yes, I wanted to do more than 50mph).  It was utterly reliable and I serviced it myself every 3,000 miles after the 1st dealer service.  I part exchanged it with 98,000 miles recorded for a Vauxhall Viva which had head gasket failure after 3,000 miles of ownership (50k on the clock).  The Viva did not have character, so I sold it to a dealer and bought something with far too much character to handle.  It was a Jawa 350 with sidecar.  I'll admit that it was great fun, but it was slow (struggled to reach 55mph) and so unreliable that I seemed to spend all my time fixing it so that the next commute was possible.  It ate cables.  Throttle and brake cables broke frequently, usually the nipples pulling off the ends.  It broke spokes on almost every journey.  Perhaps I was riding it too enthusiastically.  When it finally rogered its centre crank bearing, I gave up but kept it for 10 years and a house move before selling to someone who got it running again.

 

Then followed, in summary to ease your boredom:

Renault 12ts   Character rating: Dismal.  Too much understeer.  Reliability: Excellent until the head of a valve broke off at 156K miles, writing off the engine.

Renault 20   Character rating: Interesting, in a very French way.  Reliability: Excellent.  Rust killed it, rendering it unfit to part exchange.

Hyundai Stellar SL   Character rating:  Competent and pleasant.  Reliability : Excellent.  Part exchanged after 102,000 miles (but bought another one about 20 years later).

Hyundai Sonata  Character rating: Dull.  Reliability Excellent.  Prone to rust (1995 models....I have had two).  Both part exchanged for something more interesting.

Volvo 66  Character rating: Eccentric automation!  Reliability: Poor.  I had two.  Both had problems with big ends in their Renault engines. Oh, and rust. Both scrapped at relatively low mileage around 70k.  

Triumph Herald 1200 estate   Character rating: Wonderful, engaging, practical workhorse.  Always a joy to drive.  Reliability: Excellent.  Sold for spares at 100K miles when it generally got so worn out that I could not afford to renew everything.

BMW 520i (E28)  Character rating: Slightly aloof German competence but very enjoyable to drive.  Reliability : Excellent.  Lasted until 120K approx. when ECU started to malfunction. Repair was too expensive. Body was beginning to rust. Scrapped.

Skoda Estelle (105 and 120)  Character rating: Total love.  Wonderful handling.  Reliability: Excellent.  105 was scrapped after I accidently wrecked the engine (I cried).  120 was sold at a profit (bought for £500, sold for £1250).

Skoda Rapid (135 and 136)  Character rating: More total love.  Ultimate roadholding better than the Estelles, though I actually preferred the swing axled variants.  Reliability excellent, albeit with one head gasket replacement on each.

 

All of the above were my daily drivers and covered about 24K per year.  I've also owned Mini Coopers (Rover), a Citroen CX and Reliants but I have already bored the pants off most of you  .

[Bamboocarman]

I tend to avoid cars which are boring to drive, and that includes most modern stuff.  I prefer cars which have interesting engineering, although there have been exceptions e.g. the Stellars.  In 2007 I was quite taken with a Mitsubishi i, a 660cc rear engined turbocharged automatic (conventional slush box). Bought as an ex-demonstrator with 650 miles on the clock, I kept it for 7 years, during which I covered 86,000 miles with complete reliability.  It was practical, cruised happily at motorway speeds even on the hilly sections and returned 45mpg.  Servicing was by main dealer every 6,000 miles (expensive!). Then it broke.  It ingested one of it's turbo blades, or rather, a blade fractured and buggered the waste gate.  The bill to fix it would have been £1200.  If the car had had the character I was expecting from a rear engined car, I would have forked out and kept it.  It simply did not.  Like most moderns, it was coldly efficient and despite the configuration was engineered to understeer.  This gave it a slightly clumsy feel.  It also rusted. I told my local garage to dispose of it after I had paid the £70 to investigate why it had stopped working.  Someone (not the garage) did eventually get it back on the road but I have no regrets. Back in 1975 I bought a brand new 2cv6.  It had character in abundance, was practical and averaged 36mpg (yes, I wanted to do more than 50mph).  It was utterly reliable and I serviced it myself every 3,000 miles after the 1st dealer service.  I part exchanged it with 98,000 miles recorded for a Vauxhall Viva which had head gasket failure after 3,000 miles of ownership (50k on the clock).  The Viva did not have character, so I sold it to a dealer and bought something with far too much character to handle.  It was a Jawa 350 with sidecar.  I'll admit that it was great fun, but it was slow (struggled to reach 55mph) and so unreliable that I seemed to spend all my time fixing it so that the next commute was possible.  It ate cables.  Throttle and brake cables broke frequently, usually the nipples pulling off the ends.  It broke spokes on almost every journey.  Perhaps I was riding it too enthusiastically.  When it finally rogered its centre crank bearing, I gave up but kept it for 10 years and a house move before selling to someone who got it running again.

 

Then followed, in summary to ease your boredom:

Renault 12ts   Character rating: Dismal.  Too much understeer.  Reliability: Excellent until the head of a valve broke off at 156K miles, writing off the engine.

Renault 20   Character rating: Interesting, in a very French way.  Reliability: Excellent.  Rust killed it, rendering it unfit to part exchange.

Hyundai Stellar SL   Character rating:  Competent and pleasant.  Reliability : Excellent.  Part exchanged after 102,000 miles (but bought another one about 20 years later).

Hyundai Sonata  Character rating: Dull.  Reliability Excellent.  Prone to rust (1995 models....I have had two).  Both part exchanged for something more interesting.

Volvo 66  Character rating: Eccentric automation!  Reliability: Poor.  I had two.  Both had problems with big ends in their Renault engines. Oh, and rust. Both scrapped at relatively low mileage around 70k.  

Triumph Herald 1200 estate   Character rating: Wonderful, engaging, practical workhorse.  Always a joy to drive.  Reliability: Excellent.  Sold for spares at 100K miles when it generally got so worn out that I could not afford to renew everything.

BMW 520i (E28)  Character rating: Slightly aloof German competence but very enjoyable to drive.  Reliability : Excellent.  Lasted until 120K approx. when ECU started to malfunction. Repair was too expensive. Body was beginning to rust. Scrapped.

Skoda Estelle (105 and 120)  Character rating: Total love.  Wonderful handling.  Reliability: Excellent.  105 was scrapped after I accidently wrecked the engine (I cried).  120 was sold at a profit (bought for £500, sold for £1250).

Skoda Rapid (135 and 136)  Character rating: More total love.  Ultimate roadholding better than the Estelles, though I actually preferred the swing axled variants.  Reliability excellent, albeit with one head gasket replacement on each.

 

All of the above were my daily drivers and covered about 24K per year.  I've also owned Mini Coopers (Rover), a Citroen CX and Reliants but I have already bored the pants off most of you  .

 

Not boring at all; very interesting to compare long term experiences, thanks.

[laser wheels]

This is still the case though. In the last couple of weeks I've had 2 different people (one work colleague, one friend) tell me they're now looking for a new car as there current one is 'really high mileage'

 

On further investigation both cars were on just over 70k.

 

I've just bought a 4 year old diesel with 61k on the clock and thought that was fairly reasonable mileage!

 

This, definitely this. I have a colleague who was looking to change her virtually brand new car as it had 'over 20k' on the clock. She sounded like she thought it was on it's last legs! But I suppose when you're coming to the end of your PCP there is no need to run a car to a high mileage any more as you just swap it for a new one every 3 years or whatever.

[gordonbennet]

They weren't all worn out at 100k, even petrols.

 

At age 18 in 1973 i got a job driving Transit vans and 3 tonner D series Fords, my first van there was a flat bed tranny twin wheel V4 reg no SNK179J...how come i can remember that and not what i did yesterday?

This had been the gaffers own van when he went owner driver before expanding to about a dozen vans, he'd babied it and had changed the oil sometimes every week or once a month max depending on mileage, Duckhams 20/50, that van had done something around the 150k mark when i got it and the engine was a sweet as the day it was made, would still cruise at 80 all day long if needs be, i drove that for about 12 months putting another 50+k on it and it still never missed a beat.

 

Later on when i got me lorry licence i worked for probably the most meticulously maintained smallish haulier, circa 15 lorries so artics some rolonoff skip wagons, in the county if not the country, Clarks of Wellingborough if anyones interested, he overspecified the vehicles, had been Rolls engined Scammell Crusaders which i drove and enjoyed immmensily, but as they stood head and shoulders above any of the foreign muck (he wouldn't have a foreign motor in the yard) he gradually moved on to Cummins in Sed Acks and ERF's...i learned a lot there, serviced and maintained way beyond what was required, engine oil every 15k, gearbox and axle oils every 45k, autolube for chassis, bodies and chassis regularly painted, those vehicles would cover 7 years of near enough constant 70 mph running at max weights.

No bloody trouble at all, and the best bit at 7 years they still looked good and were mechanically barely run in,  not unexpectedly there was a queue of owner drivers and small hauliers waiting to buy them.

 

As for primitive whats that anyway, nothing at all wrong with the philosophy of if it aint broke don't fix it.

[andrew e]

Do any hauliers operate like this now - can you over specify a modern truck?

[gordonbennet]

Do any hauliers operate like this now - can you over specify a modern truck?

There's a few who operate old school, one of my old mates drives for one, the guvnor's still happy to spec manual gearboxes proper engines and most unusually now rear tag axles, very well kept and the drivers are happy, driver satisfaction is still there.

 

You can specify vehicles for the job like that, enough for more than the required job or just get standard fleet spec that the makers want to supply in pile it high supply it cheap volumes.

For most operations in the UK, too much traffic on the road, limited to 55mph, not much point in overspeccing when it's basically a 3/5 years rental with full repair/maintenance package and then it goes back.

Unfortunately i work for one of the latter, so get parcel spec with auto everything that gives no driver satisfaction whatsoever especially at the weight we run at...but its a good job it pays the bills the hours are short for the industry average and the job is piss easy, its just a job now,  the days of the old school lorry driver are almost over sadly, another decade and the old school will be retired and forgotten.