primitive vehicles ?

[fordperv]

I know a chap who has a mk3 capri and it has been around the clock 3 times with m.o.ts to back up the claim, don't know the exact mileage but his brother owned it from a couple of years old then he had it, it's had a couple of sets of stem seals in its time but other than that only regular servicing, there is another chap local who has a daily use mk1 sierra ghia estate, that he has had from new, it's got around 270,000 miles on it, probably more now

[SiC]

What is defined as modern?

 

For me, its when production became automated and computer controlled. As soon as CNC mills and lathes were churning out repeatable engines and parts, things became far more less about how the machinist had indigestion that afternoon when he was boring out the cylinders in your engine, to more if the designers+engineers didn't make a screw up/compromise too far.

 

Likewise the advent of electronic fuel injection has allowed the critical fuel+air mix in an engine to be far more repeatable affair.

 

Now different manufacturers phased these in at different times. Some teething trouble when they first started appearing, but as time got on, these were overcome and processes mastered. This makes it difficult for me to pin a date down to say when "modern" cars became modern. But by the mid 90s, the mass-manufacturers were all pretty much using modern automated production techniques - so I guess around that sort of period.

[derskine]

Certainly not nostalgia, as I'm 22 and love nothing more than flying around the countryside in my Cortina/Imp.

It's difficult to pin it down, but there's just something about an old engine - the smell, the sound, the response, the irregularities.

Handling too, doesn't rely on computers so what you have is a car that genuinely handles well, not a car that handles sufficiently, but is corrected by computers and gizmos.

 

Reliability wise, I can't kid myself that they're even equally as reliable as modern cars.

Yes, it's possible for an old engine to rack up a fair mileage, but it won't be plain sailing.

[holbeck]

ISTR in the 80's, VW Motoring magazine  actually had a regular page dedicated to announcements from readers that their car had reached 100k. The point being (I assume) that VW's could easily achieve that figure, however lesser vehicles......

[alfetta]

My father moved to Saabs in the early 70's, after his last BL product basically fell apart from the factory...NO rust issues and engines that would do 150K no worries.

[John F]

My first car was an 8-year old Mk 2 Escort with 70,000 on the clock.

 

It needed most of its floor replacing for the next MOT. I suspect that this propensity towards dissolving was what killed many vehicles around the 100,000 mile point rather than any particular shortcomings in the engines of the era.

[conkerman]

My father moved to Saabs in the early 70's, after his last BL product basically fell apart from the factory...NO rust issues and engines that would do 150K no worries.

Which is ironic.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[Bfg]

"I suspect that this propensity towards dissolving was what killed many vehicles around the 100,000 mile point rather than any particular shortcomings in the engines of the era."

 

I restarted my design career in the Midland's car industry in the late 1970's, when the design lifespan for a British car was five years.  Small cars were expected to do 5 - 10,000 miles per annum.  Expectations for larger models and light commercials was 5,000 p.a. more.  So, 75,000 miles would have called for a major mechanical overhaul.  By which time the car had changed hands a couple of times, and the warranties didn't generally carry over. Monocoque construction necessitated spot welded overlaps in body panels, but why should the manufacture worry about sealing them, when the normal warrantee was just one year, and then only covered 'structural piercing of the body steel'.?

 

In practice the salted roads, together with economies in paint finishing - was indeed the death rattle to most.  'Middle class' car's tended to be washed more frequently in those days,  and those kept in a garage fared very much better than anything parked in a city street, in the shadow of homes and trees.., yet being splashed by every other vehicle that passed.   It was not at all uncommon to see cars with sills, door skins, and arches rusted through on one side, the other side being fine.  In the meantime condensation and leaky seals led to rusting the floors from the inside (there being only a flash paint covering inside !).

 

I think my BMW 733i (second to last off the production line) was the first car I saw with rubberised stone chip paint ..but that was an executive motor car. Not something found on a Ford Escort. 

 

From 1981 to the mid-90's I owned a kit car business ..and the choice of rusted out 'donor cars' with decent mechanicals, costing bugger all, was enormous. We, the public were allowed to go into scrap yards to take parts off cars stacked six high, and the legislation / bureaucracy to get the cars on the road was a doddle. I don't recall rebuilding any car engine, other than to tune it..   And although it would have been cheaper to buy another motor rather than to spend good money on machining & parts - it was never necessary.  They may have been lesser power, and not as economical as today's computer chip motors, but in my experience - very tough. 

[Junkman]

It's not so much a problem with primitive vs. sophisticated.

The fundamental thing spoiling everything nowadays is that numbing down to the max.

Actually, the majority of the people are numbed down as well.

[conkerman]

Having a car used to be unusual. Now they are white goods. And bloody good at what they do.

 

For me 'modern' started with the Peugeot 405, and I still think they are the sweet spot for simplicity/reliability, And the introduction of the Mondeo really saw in the modern age where pretty much all cars were decent.

 

Things you never really heard of 30 years ago.

 

Lambda sensor

DMF

Catalyst

PCP

Downsized boosted engines.

Emissions testing.

Traction control

Airbags

 

 

 

Things the public generally don't hear now.

 

Carburettor/dashpot etc.

Points

Condenser

De-Coke (although Direct injection is bringing these back)

Grease Nipple

King Pin.

Trunnion.

Timing gun

Dwell angle

Cross plies

[cros]

I greatly regret turning down a 60's American car offered to me for £20 by a serviceman returning to the States. I baulked at the running costs compared with the small French junk I was driving at the time, but with hindsight I think I missed out. 50's Rovers owe a lot to US car design and I've belatedly found them to be very nice.

 

*just ascertained from a relatives photo the car was a Valiant from around '63- nicely battered faded blue.

Edited March 4, 2016 by cros

[captain_70s]

As an attraction for a motoring enthusiast older cars are great, for the general motoring public they're shit.

 

I ran my Dolomites for a combined three years and 18,000ish miles, it was... Manageable. Until winter, all of a sudden the concept of having to fix your sole form of transport before work the next day was less tempting with it being dark, raining and 4C outside. Sending the cars to a garage was out of the question as the bills were far too much, the rate that the rust spread at was also insane.

 

No normal person is going to crank their car over on the starter for 5 mins praying for it to start before giving up and bump starting it down a hill, then driving to work at no more than 51mph and knocking the car in to neutral to coast down hills in order to save oil use before rev matching back into gear before arriving at work to find half their wheelarch has disintegrated on the trip... Even when the cars were running properly they were no match for moderns in terms of braking and handling and felt unstable at far lower speeds. I remember following a co-worker in a Disastra back from work with my Dolomite's steering wheel at a 45 degree angle to keep the car going in a straight line against a crosswind, when I mentioned the winds to my co-worker the following day he said "what crosswind?"

 

My Dad still buys cars with the logic he applied in the 1980s, anything over 6 years old or 60,000 miles is already too far gone to bother with.

[SiC]

My Dad still buys cars with the logic he applied in the 1980s, anything over 6 years old or 60,000 miles is already too far gone to bother with.

All the more the better, if more people think like this. Means more bargain motors for those of us not concerned about such things!

 

Also our low second hand prices are also aided by the fact that we drive on the right side and so no ready export market to the rest of Europe.

[Bren]

I love old cars. And New cars.

 

Old cars are good for demonstrating how good new cars are.

[Junkman]

Things you never really heard of 30 years ago unless you lived in the USA.

 

Lambda sensor

DMF

Catalyst

PCP

Downsized boosted engines.

Emissions testing.

Traction control

Airbags

 

EFA

[Junkman]

I love old cars. And New cars.

 

Old cars are good for demonstrating how shit new cars are.

 

EFA

[John F]

conkerman, on 03 Mar 2016 - 3:32 PM, said:

Things the public generally don't hear now, unless they live in the USA.

 

Carburettor/dashpot etc.

Points

Condenser

De-Coke (although Direct injection is bringing these back)

Grease Nipple

King Pin.

Trunnion.

Timing gun

Dwell angle

Cross plies

 

EFA

[gtd2000]

I'd say that in days gone by many cars were given a "haircut" before being sold on....the actual mileage was never really known

[gtd2000]

All the more the better, if more people think like this. Means more bargain motors for those of us not concerned about such things!

 

Also our low second hand prices are also aided by the fact that we drive on the right side and so no ready export market to the rest of Europe.

 

Cars are not particularly cheap in Ireland or any other RHS island in the EU region to my knowledge?

[Lacquer Peel]

UK cars do get exported to the ROI and Cyprus, but they're not large enough markets to change the prices here much.

[Junkman]

About 40% of all cars worldwide are built with RHD, so I think the number of used cars exported from the UK is higher than most people think it is.

However, the prices are dictated by the buyers and many typical RHD markets are not the most affluent ones.

Add to this, that people here generally have a very lax attitude towards car maintenance, hence the quality of UK used cars is comparatively low.

[Bfg]

.

"crank their car over on the starter for 5 mins praying for it to start"

 

Surely 85% of this issue is due to mechanical fuel pumps.?  I have a 215,000 mile LWB Chrysler Voyager and was advised 3 or 4 years ago that I'd need to buy a new battery "before the winter".   But its not been needed.. I turn the ignition on, listen for its electrical fuel pump to do it's stuff, and when it stops - then the car will start immediately.  Had I not pumped the fuel through first - then likewise I would have been churning the motor over while it was pumping the fuel through.. by which time the battery's run down and the spark is weak.   Repeatedly cold cranking is neither good for the engine, electrics, nor the driver..

 

Exactly the same with my '66 S-type Jaguar, with it's six cylinder 3.8ltr cast iron 'lump' and auto-choke.  Simply let the electric fuel pump fill the bowls of the twin carbs and it'll start immediately.  Absolute bitch if you didn't !

 

Bottom line is :  Fuel pumps don't do well with pumping air !  And this is (imo) why  so many older cars needed so much cranking.. 

"a very lax attitude towards car maintenance"  ... probably accounts for the other 15% of starting / cranking issues !

 

I've just bought a 1974 Shitroen, with a mechanical fuel pump actuated by an extra lobe on the camshaft. The fuel tank (for sake of c. of g.)  is very low down under the boot (10 ft away from the motor)..  This particular car has been standing for 16 years so I'll need to recommission her, but before I even bother to fart around with it - I bought a one-way fuel valve (to prevent the fuel from back draining)  and an electric fuel pump,  which I'll place in-line immediately next to the tank.  That way it'll be primed

 

"About 40% of all cars worldwide are built with RHD"    Is that a fact ? I didn't know that..

[forddeliveryboy]

Electric fuel pump? Nah, complication. Fill the carb bowl with fuel, drain the old from the tank, fresh in, check for leaks and off you go.

[Bfg]

Electric fuel pump? Nah, complication. Fill the carb bowl with fuel, drain the old from the tank, fresh in, check for leaks and off you go.

 

Surely that's fine for the first start but not for everyday use.?   I'd suggest a non-return valve in the pipe would be useful to stop the fuel back-siphoning to the low positioned fuel tank - on a daily basis  ...but when a car is often left standing unused for days or weeks - then an electric fuel pump is useful to re-prime the system and, if still fitted, the mechanical fuel pump. 

[djimbob]

That's just not true. Perhaps it was of Fords, but most cars from 30 years ago (1986 just to remind ourselves) could top 100k with no worries. BX diesels could do three times that without breaking a sweat (although the petrols were sometimes a bit flaky). I bought my 1986 2CV with 89k miles on it, and the engine sailed past 100k with no worries (pulled it out at 170k because the rings needed doing. Not done that yet...). 1986 was when Toyota and Nissan were on the scene, and their cars were pretty long lived too. 

 

Mind you, even in the early 1980s, Land Rover was still selling diesels that needed a rebuild every 60,000 miles - petrols would likely last 80,000 miles. And they wondered why Nissan and Toyota began stealing sales from them...

 

I don't think character comes from flaws either. I just think older cars are generally more engaging to drive than moderns, and certainly a lot different. A BX vs Bluebird battle would be full of variety that wouldn't be there in a Cactus vs Juke comparison.

 

Apologies, should have mentioned the vehicles I was looking at purchasing thirty years ago would have been themselves between forty and fifty years old due to my budget, and despite the odd exceptionally well built and maintained motor, unlike today, you really struggled to find something that had gone round the magical clock that was not blasting out clouds of smoke, rattling and wheezing in an imminent and fatal fashion.

 

Think all Bl, Fords, Vauxhalls, very rare the Jap stuff I love now came on the radar - and whether it was a fallacy or not, it was a widely held view, with many real life examples, that hitting that 100,000 mile mark was the time to start looking for a replacement bloody sharpish

[Pete-M]

About 20 years ago I had a very tidy Y reg old Cortina 2.0 'Crusader' estate. Not a mark or blemish on the thing, drove like a new one and had obviously been really looked after. Full service history, two previous owners and it was tip top.

 

It had done 130000 miles. It was nigh on impossible to sell, people would ask about the mileage and run screaming when told 130k. It drove like a new one, nicely tight with recent shocks and void bushes, the engine was remarkably quiet for a Pinto and it started first turn every time.

 

But nobody would chance their luck with a mega mile Cortina.

 

Fast forward 20 years and it's not often I drive something with under 100k miles. Nobody is bothered. Yesterday I was in a VW Transporter van, 420k miles on the clock, auto transmission, decent condition. Bloke who owned it reckoned it was still worth about £4.5k "with 200k on it'd be worth £7k+".

 

How times change.

[Tamworthbay]

I think a lot of of the change comes down to a lack of interest in driving, most people where I work don't care about a car being quirky or good to drive. They want it to look like a tarts boudoir inside and a enormous elephant turd outside and always start and be easy to drive. So car makers make boring safe fwd cars that handle neutrally most of the time with mild under steer if pushed AND YOU WILL LIKE IT THAT WAY. If you want character then it's much harder to find.

[sierraman]

I get sick of people going 'that old Mini 1000 I had - could mend it at the side of the road' - yeah but that's what you'd be doing all the time fixing the fucker. I like cars but I don't want to get in from work at 7pm in January and start decoking the engine - even if it only takes an hour or two.

[Tamworthbay]

I get sick of people going 'that old Mini 1000 I had - could mend it at the side of the road' - yeah but that's what you'd be doing all the time fixing the fucker. I like cars but I don't want to get in from work at 7pm in January and start decoking the engine - even if it only takes an hour or two.

that's why they make such good second cars. I went for about seven or eight years in moderns as I got fed up of fixing them all the time. Now it gets fixed when it gets fixed, no rush. My last four daily drivers have been from 15 to 43 years old but I only work two miles from work so can walk or cycle if I need to. It takes the stress out. Nothing worse than lying on your back in the peeing rain knowing it has to be fixed so you can get to work tomorrow. What I have found out over the years though is that nothing is better than maintenance at preventing those issues. In fifteen years of old motors in daily use I have only had one RAC call out which was due to fried wiring I had no chance of fixing. But you do have to allow a couple of hours every month at least to keep on top of stuff.

[Pete-M]

I had a few Minis back in the early 90s.

 

Great fun to drive but a bloody disaster to work on. Subframe and body rot to rival a Ka, if the engine steady bars are knackered the carb clatters into the bulkhead and bends the needle jet thing, heater valves that never work properly and the 1275GT always seems crap on fuel.

 

If a Modern was that bad they'd call it Laguna.