Project Moogs Motahs - sinking the seat

[spartacus]

Are you following a tightening sequence for those cam carrier bolts?

[gm]

Good advice, it's one moody bugger of a car that one

leave it for a while and go play in the mazda

[Broadsword]

Sorry to see it go wrong like that after overcoming one setback already. Good to see you aren’t getting overly discouraged or annoyed. Take a step back, re-evaluate, then the next step will be easier.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

eeewww, something looks seriously wrong with that gap between the head and the CC.

 

Might be interesting to do a little dave numbers job on the CC with some wet & dry and a piece of glass, but then again if you take too much off that'll be a new problem cos it'll nip the camshaft. I think I might be looking for another head if it was me

[Geep]

Sorry to see this happen again. I would have put all pistons at mid way point when installing then turn by hand to time up. Should have made that clearer in my other post after the first time. That gives room for any valve to open without contacting piston and running out of spring travel. The trouble with trying to do it with it timed is the cam can jump round due to spring force on a cam lobe rotating it. This might not be the issue but mid way point for all 4 would eliminate the possibility. 

[Exiled_Tat_Gatherer]

Ah.... shit fella - I'm surprised it is still in one piece - I'd have gone all DaveNumbers on it and beaten the living shit out of it...... 

The amount of these motors knocking about either on the way to or already in oblivion you should be able to sort a spare out I suppose. After the amount of work already put in, it's worth the shot.

 

Mind you - I'd leave it under a cover for a week - calm the nerves! 

[The Moog]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, all gratefully received. I am not one to smash the car up or get that angry. I get cross with myself for not having the answer, but typing it out here allows me to get things straight.

 

I am back to work on Tuesday so Inbetween rain showers thought I would have a play to see if I could remove some of the variables - checking if it was something obvious.

 

Got out my other small torque wrench

Took it all apart and then checked the timing.

 

Checked the valves were in the right place to remove that.

 

Then carefully redid the bolts. What is clear that it is binding pretty quickly. The other camshaft is reasonably easily turned - yet even before the bolts are fully in the housing is binding the exhaust one.

 

Having nothing to lose I carried on tightening a quarter turn at a time but even before the torque click in it snapped some more.

 

The housing was toast anyway so not that bothered by it.

 

When we collected it one oddity was that the oil filler cap on top of the cam cover was mega tight. Like seriously hulk like tight!

 

I spoke to the PO son via WhatsApp last night and he thinks it might have been overheated before it was put away in the garage. He reckons his dad would have just ignored the temp gauge.

 

It looks like the head is a bit warped. That was also consensus on Rover 800 forum.

 

I have messaged the garage above about cylinder heads - they need the casting number to confirm

 

Also had an offer of a t series one delivered for £100 from ebay accepted. I think the camshaft housing is the same if nothing else.

 

It's getting to to the point where I will be lucky to break even - and have to make the cost versus saving the car decision.

 

If missus moog finds out costs at the moment I will be scrapping it in the morning!

 

The PO had the head skimmed when the headgasket was done last time. Will this be a problem if I want to get it done again?

[Guest Hooli]

The PO had the head skimmed when the headgasket was done last time. Will this be a problem if I want to get it done again?

 

Depends how much they took off, you get the point where you can't skim them any further either due to breaking through to oilways/ports or it just doesn't leave enough cylinder/valve clearance.

[Isaac Hunt]

I would Deffo make sure each of the pistons is at half mast as others have said.

 

Ideally At half mast with No1 half way up the compression stroke. You should then be able to turn both cams as you see fit.

 

With the cam tuning then lined up you should be able to bring No 1 piston up to TDC without any interference. As No 1 and three come up, 2 and 4 go down.

 

Any interference would soon be felt when bringing 1 & 3 up to the valves.

 

If I'm ever taking a head off or cams out, I always set the pistons at half mast.

 

The downside of your grief is the extra cost and extra time. But with a secondhand cam carrier and a bit of fettling you will soon be there

[Rusty_Rocket]

You'd have to get that cylinder head hotter than the fires of hell to warp it to the point that the casting isn't sitting flat... Are you sure the initial tightening with the valves (potentially) out of sync hasn't bent one? It could be jammed in it's guide?

[Guest Hooli]

You'd have to get that cylinder head hotter than the fires of hell to warp it to the point that the casting isn't sitting flat... Are you sure the initial tightening with the valves (potentially) out of sync hasn't bent one? It could be jammed in it's guide?

 

A tap on the end of the valve with a hammer with let you know if they move ok, a dull clonk is a stuck one. You'll feel the difference through the hammer too.

[Dave_Q]

Does the carrier sit flat with no cam in?

 

If so then I reckon it can only be the valves resisting the cam.

 

Even cracked the carrier should sit flat when the bolts are torqued up, at 25Nm each bolt will apply a force of around 1.5 tons.

[Isaac Hunt]

A tap on the end of the valve with a hammer with let you know if they move ok, a dull clonk is a stuck one. You'll feel the difference through the hammer too.

That is a very good point made regarding stuck valves, I hadn't considered that. I had assumed that a valve or two was hitting a piston and thus stopping its travel.

 

As the cam carrier continues to tightened down, the carrier stops in its travel and the carrier goes pop.

 

Can you fabricate a bridge upon which you can lever down against the tip of the vale. The valves only have to move down against spring pressure rate like a sping compressor. Get those pistons at half mast before trying though.

 

It is a pisser really cos I was looking forward to how well that rescued cam carrier turned out.

[The Moog]

Problem solved ISH.

 

Had a beer and had another go taking on all advice.

 

Safety dog in situ - the world's most velourious kennel.

 

Cam lock remove

 

Then as suggested I set pistons to mid point.

 

Next I tried the camhousing again with new camshaft

that tightened ok to the head

 

New camshaft and housing

 

 

Hmm a big difference. The whole cam housing has opened up.

 

Even removed the tappets to check so they weren't an issue.

 

 

Measure time

 

 

 

 

Nothing a mega difference.

 

Check the cam in the housing

 

Old cam

 

New cam

 

There is a definite wiggle / gap.

 

So what is rule number one of autoshite

 

- dont talk about the roffles

 

 

Ok then rule number two

 

- new parts can be as fucked as old parts.

 

Based on measurement there isn't a mega difference but I think the cam may be slightly bent or something.

 

Plan:

 

Get replacement camhousing from t series.

 

Hope it fits.

 

Then take old cam and fix the dizzy drive based on the new can positioning.

 

Fit old cam with fixed dizzy drive to car.

 

Fit timing belt

 

Patch exhaust

 

Feel like a winner.

 

Get mot.

 

Job jobbed.

 

[NorthernMonkey]

You just know it makes sense.

 

 

 

*this is beer talking

[The Moog]

You just know it makes sense.

 

 

 

*this is beer talking

Glad you are helping the local community.

[NorthernMonkey]

They owe me one....

[NorthernMonkey]

...or two, or three, or....you get the idea.

[Geep]

Having found the old cam bolts down now with the pistons midway, I would try the same again with the new cam. You have nothing to lose with the housing you have and it would prove a point. Pistons midway and old cam bolted down but was it the pistons midway or the cam swap that allowed it to bolt down? 

 

I can see potential problems arising in trying to rob the new cam of the distributor drive and fitting it to the old cam. Not sure how it fits  in to the end of the cam but before starting that, I'd check with the new cam in after the old one bolted down ok. 

[Bucketeer]

Good to see the optimist in you is winning.

[Guest Hooli]

Having found the old cam bolts down now with the pistons midway, I would try the same again with the new cam. You have nothing to lose with the housing you have and it would prove a point. Pistons midway and old cam bolted down but was it the pistons midway or the cam swap that allowed it to bolt down? 

 

I can see potential problems arising in trying to rob the new cam of the distributor drive and fitting it to the old cam. Not sure how it fits  in to the end of the cam but before starting that, I'd check with the new cam in after the old one bolted down ok. 

 

The logic of proving exactly which thing was the problem is strong in this post.

[The Moog]

 

 

Having found the old cam bolts down now with the pistons midway, I would try the same again with the new cam. You have nothing to lose with the housing you have and it would prove a point. Pistons midway and old cam bolted down but was it the pistons midway or the cam swap that allowed it to bolt down?

 

I can see potential problems arising in trying to rob the new cam of the distributor drive and fitting it to the old cam. Not sure how it fits in to the end of the cam but before starting that, I'd check with the new cam in after the old one bolted down ok.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I tried that with the new camshaft and that caused the crack to open up again - it isn't sitting right. So it wasn't the pistons causing the issue it is the camshaft itself.

 

The dizzy drive is just held on with rubber. On the old one it has disintegrated causing the drive to move.

 

Plan is to jbweld the old drive in place on the old camshaft using the new one as a reference point.

[Guest Hooli]

Is there any timing adjustment manually or can the ECU do so on these? I can foresee running issues if the dizzy drive is even a degree or two out otherwise.

[The Moog]

Is there any timing adjustment manually or can the ECU do so on these? I can foresee running issues if the dizzy drive is even a degree or two out otherwise.

Nope. The rotor arm is fixed into the end of the exhaust cam.

 

You can see it here.

[Guest Hooli]

Now that lower pic makes sense, I had no idea what it was when first posted.

[Geep]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I tried that with the new camshaft and that caused the crack to open up again - it isn't sitting right. So it wasn't the pistons causing the issue it is the camshaft itself.

 

The dizzy drive is just held on with rubber. On the old one it has disintegrated causing the drive to move.

 

Plan is to jbweld the old drive in place on the old camshaft using the new one as a reference point.

 

Ahh, ok. That's odd then given it measures up pretty much the same. My concern is how is the distributor drive locked to the cam to provide the timing? It can't be just rubber as that would allow slip between the two as some point due to age or high rpm. There must be a mechanical fixing to locate the drive to the cam at the correct orientation. The rubber may well be there to isolate the drive or take up the gap between machining of cam and size of drive but I doubt it's the actual connection mechanism. Prod carefully on old one to find out how it;'s fixed before trying to remove new one.

 

Any numbers on the new cam or checked part number online? 

[NorthernMonkey]

I think the idea is to reattach the old one to the old cam but using the new one for reference purposes when positioning it to hopefully get the timing right?

[MikeR]

is there  a gasket between the head and cam carrier on this car  ? 

 

and would that of allowed the cam to sit in the bearings ?

[The Moog]

is there a gasket between the head and cam carrier on this car ?

 

and would that of allowed the cam to sit in the bearings ?

No gasket but have news on that.

 

Gurus on Rover 800 forum say that the camshaft housings are machined for the camshaft and cylinder head itself. They come as a set. Hence a new one almost but not quite fitting. In turn it means getting one from elsewhere won't fix it.

 

So I am going to see if I can the housing welded up at a proper machine shop.

I think the idea is to reattach the old one to the old cam but using the new one for reference purposes when positioning it to hopefully get the timing right?

That's the plan. There doesn't seem to be any other fixing apart from being bonded into the rubber.

[The Moog]

So took the cam housing round to a couple of engineering places today and all of them said it was unfixable - replace the head. 

 

I have got one tentative lead on an M Series head but aside from that I am not getting anywhere.  

 

I read up on JB weld and using that but the heat cycling of the head means it wouldnt be suitable. 

 

Options are 

 

1) Scrap it

2) Spares or Repairs ebay it 

3) Maybe find a T Series engine to lob in (if it is a straight swap) 

4) Something else 

 

Mojo at the moment is a bit lacking as is time.