Daves Panda. minor fettling

[Ian_Fearn]

I hear what you're saying but years ago I went to a few French 2cv meets and they were nothing short of brilliant. I was hoping something similar exists for the Panda that I could hit this year. Otherwise it'll sit covered in dust for another year with nagging doubts over whether i can justify keeping it.

[dave21478]

Postie turned up at lunchtime with the awaited parts today so I got a shift on with this.

 

New crank seals at either end....timing end is easy, the gearbox end is a teeny bit harder. With the flywheel off the seal sits tight in a groove between housing and crank...no room to get a lever in without risking fucking up the surfaces.

 

The solution is easy - drive in a self tapping screw. Plasterboard screws are nice and pointy for doing this. Dont wang it right in in case there is delicate stuff behind, you just need it into the seal itself.

 

Then just use pliers to pull the seal out.

 

That done, flywheel back on, I reused the 4x4 clutch as I changed it when i rebuilt the car and its hardly done any miles since, then the gearbox back on.

The engine mounts were a little tired so last night I filled up the voids with sikaflex to strengthen them a bit.

 

slid the whole deal under the car and lifted it up with the hoist and bolted it home. Its exactly the same block casting, so mounts etc are all in the right places and it all looks standard. I refitted the front driveshafts, gear selectors etc, but havent yet done the propshaft as I want to sort the exhaust first.

Onto the plumbing and the cinq has a slightly different hose layout to the panda with one less take-off point on the cylinder head, so minor changes needed. I am keeping it as it used to be as I dont want to have to fit a modern expansion tank. The main problem here is the radiator top hose to thermostat on the head...the casting for the cinq thermostat is very different and the hose exits at totaly the wrong angle so thats going to take some fucking about.

I then dropped in the injection wiring loom and the ECU fits nicely on the inner wing where the old coil used to be. Will need to make up a bracket for it to bolt to.

 

And thats all I got done this afternoon.

 

Tomorrow I will look at the fuel pipes and fitting the electric fuel pump somewhere near the tank, then see about the wiring between the car loom and the cinq injection loom, which is only a small handful of wires to sort out. I will also need to fit the immobiliser system which is simple enough.

 

Might have a wee problem with the exhaust though - The cinq downpipe doesnt fit as it has a catalytic converter built in which wants to be where the gearchange rods are, so either I cut and fanny about with that to make it fit or do without the cat and use the old downpipe. If I do this I will need to weld in a boss to take the lambda sensor. Its a simple system with no sensor after the cat so a missing cat wont affect the ecu, although I dont know what that will do to the emissions....will a de-catted injection car pass emissions levels for a carburettor version?

If I do that I will need to buy a new lambda sensor as the old one isnt keen on shifting out the cinq downpipe. I will try the gas axe on it tomorrow, but reckon it might be properly stuck.

 

The cinq has a carbon cannister for fuel vapour capture....fuck all of that, I will just blank off the relevant pipe on the throttle body, but I wonder if leaving that off will affect the ECU? there is a 2-wire plug going to the cannister to actuate the valve in it...will leaving this off put on the EML? A smarter man than me would have tried disconnecting that before the cinq came apart to see what the effects were.

 

[dave21478]

ok, fiatforum says the carbon cannister can just be unplugged. It will either work or not. If it doesnt then to just bust open the cannister, recover the actuator and leave that dangling on the wiring to fool the ecu. The throttle body hose just needs plugged, and I will need to make sure the petrol tank cap is vented.

 

As for emissions, apparently they run super clean anyway so no cat is not an issue.

[crapcarcollector]

The (lack of) a fuel canister will put the EML on. No cat but the sensor in will be fine for the MOT.

1 out of 2 ain’t bad....

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dave21478]

Finally got some time to have a prod at this today. The engine has been in for ages but finding a period when free time, the will to do it and parts in stock coincide has been hard lately.

 

I think I mentioned previously that the radiator top hose was a pain since the thermostat housing is very different on the new motor and the hose stub faces the wrong way. I spend a couple of hours aimlessly wandering around a scrapyard looking for hoses to use. I thought that two cinquecento bottom hoses joined together with a bit of tube would do it but the scrapyard just slashes the bottom hoses to drain coolant. Just by pure chance I was wandering past the 206 section when I spotted a likely candidate on a crashed car....never checked which model it was off, but its an "s" shape and looked useful. Turned out to be literally the perfect fit....just slipped straight on.

 

I then finished the fuel lines and fittting the electric fuel pump. I found a rubber sleeve that is a good fit on the pump body to use as a vibration damper and fitted it next to the fuel tank with an inline filter after it. The hose connections took a bit of faff because obviously everything is the wrong diameter, but I got there in the end.

 

Then I started the wiring....the main injection loom is self-contained with the ECU and only has a small number of connections to the car loom. I had a right cunt of a time getting it to work though.....as usual I was trying to be a clever bastard and it back-fired somewhat. I took the opportunity to change the fuse box for something less shit than the old one which uses continental fuses....the fusebox from a newer Panda uses blade fuses and seems the right size, but swapping over all the wires wasnt straight forward as several of the fuses are linked to common bus bars to share power between circuits. Some prodding with the multimeter got it figured out though. I also wanted to change the ignition switch/barrel because the cinq uses a transponder chip in the key with a pickup ring around the ignition barrel...I could have just taped the key to the loop and stuffed it behind the dash somewhere and used the existing key/barrel but i wanted to use the modern style of key and have a working immobiliser for some security and so changed the barrel over, which was a straight mechanical fit on the column after i used a Dremmel to slot the shear bolts and unscrew the steering lock etc, but the wiring was different so i made up an adaptor loom with the cut off connectors.

 

With it all in place, it was deader than disco. Just not a peep from anything. Because i had changed so much at the same time, it took ages to fault-find and I ended up refitting the old fusebox for no reason as the fault wasnt there...I just wasnt getting any ignition live feed to anything. Turns out the fault was with the idiotic Fiat original wiring, where the feed to the ignition switch then goes through all the dash controls BEFORE the fusebox, rather than after as I assumed it would, which seems really dumb to me, meaning all the dash, the wiring spaghetti under it and all the dash switches are completely unfused....Italian electrics.  Because of my assumptions I had made my permanent and ignition live connections for ECU and immobiliser box in the wrong places on the car loom

 

Once i figured that, i yanked out the connections i had made between ECU, immobiliser box and the car and redid them.

 

These are somewhat provisory in nature.....

 

EML and immobiliser warning lights....

 

just check the notes.....

 

Might need this....

 

And it only bloody works....

(squeaky fanbelt)

 

 

Need to neaten up the wiring and make the connections permanent and then a few bits n bobs to finalise before I can hit the road.

[Felly Magic]

Well done there Dave2468Motorway

[Skizzer]

Excellent work! Hopefully it’ll do your mojo a bit of good to have got this engine successfully transplanted and to hear the Panda purring again.

[DeeJay]

Some good news after all the grumps 

Had to laugh at the fire extinguisher pic.

[Felly Magic]

I actually saw on youtube that someone has made a 1/43 scale radio controlled Panda using a diecast model as a base! 

[Felly Magic]

Found the vid of the RC Pandamonium. All I can say is phwoar!!

 

[Felly Magic]

Found another RC Panda video, much larger though and a Sizzler!

 

[Exiled_Tat_Gatherer]

I'd have been weeping into the loom.......... I sodding hate electrics with a passion stronger than a russian grandmas potato picking abilities...........

Well done Davewhatsits. Top chodding

[Felly Magic]

Is it clearly wrong to want that Panda Sizzler RC car? It even has a working high level brake light FFS, wibblewibbledrool

[dave21478]

I am going to say this is finished* for now.

still a few things to sort out but its as done as reasonably can be.

 

Happily the engine bay doesnt look much different apart from the addition of the modern header tank and the anorak would notice the relay box mounted on the heater intake.

 

Is it more powerful? no, its not, and i didnt expect it to be. Its just the same as it was before as far as I can tell. However, it is just soooooo fucking much better. It starts first turn of the key hot or cold, idles perfectly, doesnt bog down, doesnt stutter and doesnt stall. Power delivery is smoother and it feels more responsive.

 

Still to do...

- I want to find a better header tank that is a more suitable size and fit, plus this one has gone opaque with age so you cant see the level.

- I think the water pump could do with a smaller pulley so its spinning faster at idle. The coolant doesnt circulate as well as it should do, but raising the revs ever so slightly sorts it. I doubt if changing the pump itself would achieve anything? its not like the impeller blades wear down or anything.

- FUCKING RADIATOR IS LEAKING. Furious about that tbh, I got a brand spanker when I rebuilt the car, but despite having done less than a thousand kilometers, its well outside the guarantee period.  I cant see exactly where from, but there is a constant steamy haze coming from it and the top end tank seems damp around the seam. I will try tightening the crimps holding it together, although that means taking it out to do so.

 

And thats about it really.

 

 

[PhilA]

No, the header tanks were that color new, or black.

 

Level marker inside

 

 

Phil

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Great job davenumbers. I bet this makes a 1000% improvement in usabiilty generally. Now get some miles clocked up!!!

[Pillock]

Wait a sec, so everything live on the dashboard is unfused? That seems...... entertaining.

Top bombing on getting it going, it sounds like you've won some wars getting it there but made a huge difference.

[dave21478]

^^^ aye, thats why I fucked it up to start with, as I thought it couldnt possibly be like that, but right enough, a feed from the battery goes to the ignition switch, there is then a permanent and ignition live output from the switch which each splits into various directions, goes through the switches, instruments etc, through the relevant fuse and then on to headlight, wipers or whatever, so while the circuit is technically fused....ie if the wiper motor seizes and draws too much current the fuse will pop and protect things, the switches themselves are unfused so a short behind the dash will send it all up in smoke.

[SiC]

Sounds like 1970s Lucas had involvement in its electrical design and layout. Alwyas amazes me how few fuses 70s and before cars had.

[dave21478]

Been spevving about in this for the last week or so and its going really well. So well in fact that I think I might make it the new BluesMobile and use it daily when I dont need the pickup....a role currently filled by the MGF which is getting on my tits.

Its nice to be back in the slow lane and surprisingly I dont mind it not having a stereo.

 

There was a fine haze of steam from the radiator which seemed to be a seeping end tank seal and the rad fan only came on a tad too late for my liking when the temp needle was nudging the red.

I took the radiator out and unpicked all the wee tabs holding the plastic end tanks on, lifted them out and found that there are weird internal baffles that divert flow up and down some of the radiator elements which meant the switch for the electric fan wasnt seeing the hottest water so I drilled a couple of 10mm bypass holes in the baffles to provide a bit more flow to it, then refitted the tanks. I used a pair of ratchet straps to pull them tight and bent the tabs back down. So far it seems there is no leak. and the fan kicks in at a more reasonable temperature.

  I also ran some dishwasher tablets in it for a while and flushed it out a couple of times with a hosepipe before giving it a hopefully final fill with new antifreeze.

I have done a couple more oil changes too so the fluids are as clean as you could hope for.

 

 

I will need to change the header tank though, this one is shit.

The passenger door mirror is some cheapo universal thing and is also shit. Unfortunately, proper mkI mirrors for the early cars with opening front quarterlights seem to be unobtanium.

Its not very good at being watertight.

 

The handbrake needs adjusting, it barely holds on a hill.

The gearchange is pretty flaccid, which is weird as i was sure I had changed all the wee bushes and balljoints on the linkages, but apparently I must have hallucinated that, as they are still the old ones.

 

 

[Skizzer]

Like for the good bits, less so the leaks and niggles. But the niggles are outweighed by the general Pandaness of it all. Pandas are great.

[MorrisItalSLX]

I didn't realise it was a Panda 4X4, Nice!

[Tickman]

I liked that for the daily use and of course the taking apart and putting back together the radiator.

[spartacus]

I've 'liked' because I like Pandas, nostalgia etc.

[Ian_Fearn]

There's a few of us heading off to Italy in June to a Panda event. Fancy it?

[dave21478]

There's a few of us heading off to Italy in June to a Panda event. Fancy it?

Sorry, just seen your comment just now - thanks, but no thanks, thats not my scene.

 

 

 

 

So, while other inhabitants of the forum are busy calling people cunts for their choice of car, I have been pottering away at the Panda.

Some may have read that I bought another 4x4 to break as a parts donor....collection thread here....

http://autoshite.com/topic/31542-daves-collection-caper-another-fuggin-fail-i-just-cant-even-right-now/

 

I have been gently* removing the parts I want to keep from it.

 

With everything worthwhile removed I dragged it back onto the trailer and was going to take it to the scrapyard where I have ditched other cars from the fleet recently. They dont pay anything for the cars, which is par for the course here. Anyway, before I set off I stopped in the local village at the local pez station for local people to juice the pickup and the guy said to save a trip to the scrapyard I could take the shell up to the local building supplies place....apparently the guy collects scrap metal and while he doesnt pay out either, when he has a big skip-load he weighs it in for cash which he donates to the local kids rugby club, so that seemed fair enough and saved me a fairly long round trip too.

 

From the donor I got its gearbox and a second gearbox which was in the boot, a couple of prop-shafts too, the back axle which looks to have nearly new handbrake cables so that saves a few quid as mine are stretched, a spare pair of front struts complete with brakes etc and a pez tank that I fancy maybe modifying to take an in-tank fuel pump instead of the in-line thing I have just now, and various bits of trim and stuff.

 

 

I will refurb the axle when I have time. Some guy on the youtubes had a video up of him making his own difflock. He seemed about as well equipped as I am....ie a dirty garage full of busted tools, so if I can find the bastard again I might give that a shot.

 

I repaired the busted mirror with a 2-part epoxy glue which seems to be holding ok, and fitted it.

 

Im not sure about the bull-bars though. They are fuck-all use as actual nudge bars...way too flimsy, more for the macho* OLLI look.

 

I maybe prefer the cleaner look without them.

 

Dunno...To try them on requires removing the front bumper first so I will hold fire for now....I will rub them down and repaint them in the meantime so that if I dont fit them I can maybe flog them on.

Another problem with flimsy nudge bars is they can turn a minor bumper-scuffing bump into a more serious smashed lights and fucked wings kind of deal as they bend and hit other stuff.

 

 

I also worked out how to fit the lock barrels that I kept from the cinquecento into the Panda door latches, so now I have one key that does doors and ignition. Still need to do the boot latch, but I need a donor Panda latch for that and there wasnt one on the green car, so that can wait too.

 

 

I also fitted some tunes, but rather than fuck about with a head unit and speakers...for which there is very little choice of fitting location in a Panda, I dug out an old bluetooth speaker that is a perfect* fit wedged in the stereo slot, so that will do for now.

[Parky]

I love basic little cars, and these Pandas with the 4x4 are brilliant. I wonder how well they sold in places like Scandinavia where a small AWD vehicle would make a brilliant second car?

[dave21478]

I dunno about Abba-land and other northern shores, but in France the biggest concentrations of surviving 4x4 versions are in the Alps and the Pyrenees due to their competence on snow.

[Zelandeth]

Nice work on both the restoration and the injection conversion.

 

Pretty much exactly what I did with my Lada - albeit with the complete original engine as the injection kit just bolts on more or less.

 

Reasoning was the same...it just makes the car so much nicer to live with, doesn't it?

 

Plus single point systems like these are a far cry from the modern ones you need computers to sort! They're actually usually easy enough to fault find on if things do go awry.

[dave21478]

The Control Technique was up next week so I called up for an appointment. The dude was like "if you can get here for 10.40 then we can fit you in".

Uh, ok. So with no time for any prep or checks I trundled down to the test centre. Turns out that they are absolutely mobbed and booked solid for the next 5 weeks due to people panicking about the new testing system that starts mid May and wanting their cars done before the new rules are enforced. I happened to call just as he had a cancellation, so that was nice.

 

Anyway, it passed. A non-functioning brake light could have been a fail he would have likely turned a blind eye to, but a swift clout to the lamp got it working....quality* fiat electrical contacts in action. It got a few minors for oil leaks from gearbox and input pinion seal on the back axle, and the handbrake took a gritted teeth two-handed heave to get it to pass.