What is wrong with design Engineers ?

[red5]

Not alone - new Vx motors have two-stage oil pumps, bi-turbo set-ups etc etc. Less to do with poor engineering skills and a lot to do with ridiculous, inappropriate emissions regs. Been done to death I know, and will continue to be, but people generally underestimate the amount of hoop-jumping needed to meet targets arbitrarily set by people with little or no expertise in the area.

 

Add into that the poor regard that engineers in general, and in particular the automotive trade as a whole is held in and you get people leaving for pastures new taking highly transferable skills with them. Replaced by drone types with little or no actual experience.

 

Lovely.

[Junkman]

That would be me, it's been my job since I graduated in the early '90s so way after the 1986 deadline.

 

I've done a fair bit in the automotive industry, worked for first tier suppliers, aftermarket suppliers and still have lots of friends in the automotive industry so I know a bit about it.  The constraints are many, accountants is a good catch but if anything is to blame it's probably engineers not being good enough.  Not a popular opinion to hold in a room full of engineers, I can tell you.

 

If you can justify making a component or system stronger then it will be done, if you can't stand up to a bloke in a dull suit and matching tie who's "run the numbers" then you'll get walked over.

 

The other problem is there's a huge variety of abilities in the industry, the same as with any other job.  Compare your best schoolteacher with your worst, the best medical care you've experienced with your worst and that's what design engineers are like too.  Throw in the fact that loads of people like to meddle so any manager who can put up a shelf thinks he can tell you if your component is strong enough and it's not a great place to be if you can't fight your corner.

 

There are lots of processes and systems in place too, these are to catch the fuck-ups but (1) they can't catch them all, and (2) they can stifle creativity if you're not careful.

 

A bit of a long post but the truth may be as simple as the factory is already buying in 20 metric tonnes of the other fasteners and they can save a lot of money, money they'll spend in adding Bluetooth to your car horn or Xenon indicators - whatever they hope will sell more cars.

 

 

I left the car industry in 1989 because after three years of getting this kind of dribble I had enough. Incidentally this nonsense started after a generation change had taken place.

The previous generation still consisted predominantly of people, who started their career as apprentices, the new generation exclusively of yaysayers with uni degrees.

[Bobthebeard]

I used to know a design engineer. He designed tact* switches for Lucas Automotive. I have no idea what was wrong with him though. (Apart from a really high forehead and hair that looked like a hat.)

 

* Whatever they are/were.

[garethj]

I left the car industry in 1989 because after three years of getting this kind of dribble I had enough. Incidentally this nonsense started after a generation change had taken place.

The previous generation still consisted predominantly of people, who started their career as apprentices, the new generation exclusively of yaysayers with uni degrees.

Conversely, when I started there were plenty of design engineers that couldn't back up their ideas with any theory and unless it was massively heavy the designs wouldn't work. An apprenticeship and experience doesn't always work, far from it.

 

University or not, it's the desire to do things better that makes a good engineer IMO

 

As the post above, if the pay and conditions are rubbish then you lose people, the people who are most likely to get an interview somewhere else. That can leave you with a team you wouldn't pick yourself.

[Sloth in a bowl]

The issue with motor engineering is probably similar to the issues with software engineering. Changes to the design are made for different reasons in the following order of priority.

 

We have to do it for legal reasons - hence emissions stuff

 

If we do this more people will buy it - hence lots of stupid tech that you use once then forget it exists and mpg figure cheats like a 1 litre turbo Mondeo

 

It's properly broken, we better fix it - those things that everybody complains about

 

That will make life easier for the person who maintains this - note that the person that maintains this is NOT the person that buys it, so who gives a shit about them

 

A few people have issues with this feature - fuck 'em

[gordonbennet]

^^ thats a fair list Sloth, i reckon our priorities here are the reverse with number one the stupid tech being avoided at all costs cos the bastard will go wrong.

 

My priorities, durable reliable and relatively simple to fix, but a new car engineer isn't bothered about things like that because people like me don't buy new unless it's industrial simple, hence Hilux the only new vehicle i've bought.

[Dick Longbridge]

Interesting one on the lack of dipstick. I was reading about Smart cars a while back, and that you basically had to hoover the oil out of the engine to change it, as there was no drain plug. What sort of nonsense is this?

The wife was looking at * cough * 1 One series Bimmers a while back as she 'likes them.'

She looked at it, stupidly put a deposit down on it without my knowing, and then dragged me down to the forecourt to see the car (after I'd done a quick bit of perve-net brushing up on the N47 engined 1 series.)

 

Salesman: It has no dipstick, but is so intelligent that it tells you when the oil is low or needs changing.

Me: I'm not convinced a lack of dipstick is a good thing. I like to physically check, so I know the actual situation on oil level.

 

Salesman: It has a timing chain, not a belt, which will last the life of the engine. Brilliant idea and saves the owner money.

Me: The engine is sat facing the wrong way, with the pulleys buried in the bulkhead. The ONLY way the chain and tensioner can be checked is to drop the engine. Also the N47 motor has a design flaw where the edges of the crankshaft pulley are sharp, thereby wearing the chain prematurely and eventually snapping it with no warning.

 

Salesman: It's a rare occurrence and I've only had one* do it in many years of selling BMWs.

Me: Why is there a 50+ page thread on babybmw forum on serious faults with the N47 engine?

 

The salesman got snotty at this point, and explained that he didn't get the 'right feeling about us' and that we may be better off looking at a different marque. Whilst just about maintaining my composure, I politely asked for the full deposit back, which was duly returned.

I sincerely hope this isn't the way all moderns are going...

[Richard]

Does the 1 Series have a back to front engine? I thought they were RWD.

[gordonbennet]

Haven't they started sticking timing chains at the gearbox end now on some, that's a fucking great idea lads on a north south engine.

[garethj]

Saab 900s were the same I think

[Dick Longbridge]

Does the 1 Series have a back to front engine? I thought they were RWD.

They're RWD but have all the pulleys at the 'wrong' end, with no access. I don't know what I find worse - the deranged design ideas, or the knobs that rubber stamp them. Having said that, the fact that some owners don't actually realise their 1 series is RWD says a fair bit about BMW's target market...

[gordonbennet]

There's a thread on another forum just fired up, Jag XF just out of warranty, front indicator bulb blown, course its led shit so integral part of a complete one new headlight @ £1172.

 

Its not a car that appeals to me anyway but many do like it, but have things now gone beyond ludicrous and we're into a world of fantasy where nothing is real any more.

 

Christ knows what those scrolling rear indicators on Aldi's will cost when they shit themselves.

 

Just why?   what the hell was wrong with a 21w bulb.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Interesting one on the lack of dipstick. I was reading about Smart cars a while back, and that you basically had to hoover the oil out of the engine to change it, as there was no drain plug. What sort of nonsense is this?

The wife was looking at * cough * 1 One series Bimmers a while back as she 'likes them.'

She looked at it, stupidly put a deposit down on it without my knowing, and then dragged me down to the forecourt to see the car (after I'd done a quick bit of perve-net brushing up on the N47 engined 1 series.)

 

Salesman: It has no dipstick, but is so intelligent that it tells you when the oil is low or needs changing.

Me: I'm not convinced a lack of dipstick is a good thing. I like to physically check, so I know the actual situation on oil level.

 

Salesman: It has a timing chain, not a belt, which will last the life of the engine. Brilliant idea and saves the owner money.

Me: The engine is sat facing the wrong way, with the pulleys buried in the bulkhead. The ONLY way the chain and tensioner can be checked is to drop the engine. Also the N47 motor has a design flaw where the edges of the crankshaft pulley are sharp, thereby wearing the chain prematurely and eventually snapping it with no warning.

 

Salesman: It's a rare occurrence and I've only had one* do it in many years of selling BMWs.

Me: Why is there a 50+ page thread on babybmw forum on serious faults with the N47 engine?

 

The salesman got snotty at this point, and explained that he didn't get the 'right feeling about us' and that we may be better off looking at a different marque. Whilst just about maintaining my composure, I politely asked for the full deposit back, which was duly returned.

I sincerely hope this isn't the way all moderns are going...

 

 

The sales guy was in a difficult position. He knows the car is shit, you know it's shit. But he's not allowed to say "yeah, they're a barrel of shit mate. I wouldn't touch it with yours"

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Saab 900s were the same I think

 

 

Yes, but back then Saabs were made from high quality parts. Has anyone ever heard of a slant 4 Saab chain breaking?

 

No?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I left the car industry in 1989 because after three years of getting this kind of dribble I had enough. Incidentally this nonsense started after a generation change had taken place.

The previous generation still consisted predominantly of people, who started their career as apprentices, the new generation exclusively of yaysayers with uni degrees.

 

What did you actually do?

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

New Jag/Rover engine has electric oil and water pumps, ECU tells them how much flow according to what the engine needs and when its weighing in time.

 

Yep, new BMW 2.0d B47 as well.

 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

The situation is now very rapidly approaching the point where cars are just not repairable.

 

True story: I was invited to the launch of the new Audi A4 last weekend. I went for a look, recognised someone I used to work with, got chatting. Left the showroom, drove home and realised I'd not actually looked at the A4. I walked past it (it was a black one) twice, it was that exciting. 

[cort1977]

 

 

To chip in with something that's very wrong, design engineers have a ceiling to their salary.  Again, most people do and perhaps this is a wider problem, but certainly in engineering your best engineers often get made into managers and actually management is a difficult one to pull off - we know this because we can all count several crap managers we've had.  The skill set for it is often the opposite of what makes a good engineer so as a company develops sometimes you lose your best engineer and gain one of your worst managers.

 

I'd like to see jobs like a "technical specialist" where your best engineers go, they get paid as much as a manager but they do what they're good at.  Dunno if this happens in any other area, but it's a long time from happening in engineering.

An interesting post.   I am an engineer but my 'design' experience is pretty much limited to designing rigging to lift loads offshore.   I know enough to understand that all the factors going in to automotive design must make it extremely challenging.   Also totally agree that many engineers make poor managers.  

 

In oil and gas there are roles like mine where I am a subject matter expert (SME - because you can never have too many TLAs) and provide technical support to various internal clients but get paid around management rates.   Not that I am one of the best engineers, more to do with having been lucky to gain the right experience and the fact that many older engineers are retiring. 

[cros]

A big lump of blame for what Autoshiters find unacceptable on new cars falls on buyers. I think many people love products with a short life, thats why floor-fucking stiletto heels fly off the shelves. A motorcar is a disposable fashion item, and as such the designer has got it about right.
I asked a tour guide at Landrover why they dropped the galvanised bits from their oldest product even though the advertising often centres around the longevity of earlier 4x4s. It was a dumb question when I only had to look at the vast numbers of cars produced in 2015 compared with when I when I went round the factory in the mid 60's.
As I was getting into my series 1 to leave someone asked if I'd swap it for a new 90; not a chance.

[sierraman]

Jags have never been cheap to fix at any age. 10 years down the line I've no doubt people will be re conditioning those LED lamps.

 

To be fair autoshitist a will be less affected than most, if I'd had an impossible to fix water pump go on a £450 Vauxhall Insignia, I'd sling it and get another. Justify that on something you've just spent £4500 on.

 

People always find a way, when catalytic converters became a frequent sight people were saying to avoid them as they cost nigh on a grand. Now you can cover them for under a hundred quid.

 

There's more older cars than ever now if you look at it, it's just that you cannot fix them with some baling twine and some sticks. In 1985 how many people were out there spending the equivalent having engine rebuilds at 100k on an Astra or new clutches every 30-40k.

[cros]

Novel pricing structure Jag have come up with,  £1172 for an indicator, £1275 for the headlamp...

[forddeliveryboy]

To chip in with something that's very wrong, design engineers have a ceiling to their salary.  Again, most people do and perhaps this is a wider problem, but certainly in engineering your best engineers often get made into managers and actually management is a difficult one to pull off - we know this because we can all count several crap managers we've had.  The skill set for it is often the opposite of what makes a good engineer so as a company develops sometimes you lose your best engineer and gain one of your worst managers.

 

I'd like to see jobs like a "technical specialist" where your best engineers go, they get paid as much as a manager but they do what they're good at.  Dunno if this happens in any other area, but it's a long time from happening in engineering.

 

 

Couldn't agree more - and the problem is well-versed in so many professions. Teaching, nursing, engineering - wherever the real work requires a high degree of practical skills and creativity. Trouble is, few professional managers could handle (let alone run smoothly) a ward-full of awkward patients, crap doctors and crippling paperwork/orders from on high, neither a class full of children and ridiculous orders from both governors and Whitehall. Let alone start to help the patients recover/instill the basics of trigonometry into kids.

 

My solution to the Jag-flasher problem would be to obtain a clockwork two-way switch likewotwozprewar and wire in my own circuit and lamps. Everything's made of plastic at the front and back nowadays, so only a fraction of the work of mounting a pair of foglamps to steel bumper bars.

[cros]

My solution to the Jag-flasher problem would be to obtain a clockwork two-way switch likewotwozprewar and wire in my own circuit and lamps. Everything's made of plastic at the front and back nowadays, so only a fraction of the work of mounting a pair of foglamps to steel bumper bars.

A sound idea. My choice would be Britpart pattern Landrover indicator lamps at around £3.50 each. The ones I've had are appallingly made and would thus be a match for the OE items.

[twosmoke300]

I'm sure the clock cluster repair people or bba reman etc could fix it

[forddeliveryboy]

^^ I'm sure they could but a load of Jags riding round with Britpart LR indicators self-tapped onto the bumpers would probably get their arses into gear and sort such a crazy problem.

[New POD]

Torx 45 , feels like a 40 but is a 45 . Iirc it's only 13nm torque but they always get over tightened by monkeys

 

Thanks for that info. Oil Changed Yesterday in about 30 mins. The Oil Filter is a little tight for access compared to the earlier version, but not impossible.

[cros]

Just investigated the rocker box oil leak on my P4s landrover engine. First problem is that though this version only came out in the mid 80s it has a cork gasket that needs glueing in place, there being no flange or other means to hold it in place.

There are drain holes at the front and rear of the head to prevent oil building up against the gasket if the engine is on an incline. This is the drain at the front-

Here's the one at the rear-

After poking about I dug out a bit of sealer which had caused the rear drain hole to block, job done, but why did they design it like that when most inline engines are installed with the front slightly higher than the rear? (I haven't put the head on backwards either).

[Talbot]

For my sins, I am also an Engineer, doing various aspects of Design, R&D and other odds and sods as necessary, but on completely bespoke individual projects for the BioGas industry. I have worked on the periphery of the automotive industry, but I doubt I would ever want a job as an automotive designer. There are so many contstraints and requirements that have to be complied with, and the politics in it is just absurd.

 

Many of the restrictions, requirements, policies and designs come out of politics. An example:

 

A certain well known yellow digger manufacturer in the UK decided that they had too many hydraulic leaks on their equipment. They set up a massive Leak-Free project to ensure this was no longer a problem, but focussed on the wrong things.. they were looking at dimensional accuracy of hydraulic components, adding O-rings and seals where they were not needed, and generally trying make what is a fairly crude part of the system into something far more precision.. which is clearly never going to happen.

 

Any Engineer (me included) could see in an instant that the problem was that the basic design of the pipe joins was flawed, and a simple design change would fix it overnight. In my naievity, I suggested this and was instantly shot down in flames and ridiculed. It was later explained to me that the existing design was the "brainchild" of one of their senior Engineers, and absolutely could not be changed. Despite the fact that it was (and still is to this day) complete bollocks.

 

So rather than anyone offend their senior Engineer (who was "senior" in all ways) they just kept cocking about with minor changes to a bollocks design, hoping to not be fired.

 

It is for this experience, and *dozens* similar that I massively prefer working for small companies who don't have absurd and restrictive policies and politics.

[dieselnutjob]

I would far rather have Torx bolts than allen head bolts.  It appears to be possible to put a very high torque on Torx bolts without them rounding, and a sent of Torx bits for a socket set isn't expensive.

[SiC]

It is for this experience, and *dozens* similar that I massively prefer working for small companies who don't have absurd and restrictive policies and politics.

I totally agree. My experience of working in smaller firms doing software engineering is so much more pleasant.

 

 

I would far rather have Torx bolts than allen head bolts.  It appears to be possible to put a very high torque on Torx bolts without them rounding, and a sent of Torx bits for a socket set isn't expensive.

That's why they're so heavily used in modern cars. You can drive them hard and fast which is great for reducing manufacturing times and thus costs.

[MikeR]

why cant any car be fixed with a tenners worth of metric combos , a selections of pound shop screwdrivers and a wheel spider for the suspension , thats all my Volvo needed !!!

 

then I got a Vauxhall ....... "fastenings" galore  have they heard of nuts ???????

 

2nd Vauxhall  , who designs a dodgy steering drive that puts all the effort throu the column and pinion as opposed to a ram on the rack !!

 

Ford  , some what more sensible , but the fancy charging system , just give it 14,5 volts !!!

 

Fiat ....rust at its best , anyone mention Ferrari ?

 

Nissan .. goes till it drops , then you need a watchmaker to set it up