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Seriously (no really) interesting stuff about electric cars


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#61 OFFLINE   Tayne

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 06:03 PM

I'll call devil's advocate on you there, because I've got a hydrogen refuelling station right on my doorstep but up until that link I had no idea where you would buy a fuel cell powered car.

 

 

I've got one as well, the Aberdeen Hydrogen Bus Project is based 5 mins up the road from me.

 

However, if I spent £50k on a Toyota Mirai I couldn't drive it to Edinburgh and back.


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#62 ONLINE   DVee8

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 07:33 PM

We have been told that the Leaf build is going up over the next 3 months due to the release of the new batteries with a 250 mile range :-D.Or if you listen to some a 600 mile range :roll: :roll:


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#63 OFFLINE   Barry Cade.

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 08:24 PM

I've had quite a bit of experience with electric cars recently, as well as a chance to have a good chat with the owners. 1 Renault Zoe owner commuted between Dunfermline and Glasgow every day, and seemed quite happy with the car. He had a charger at home and one at work, so started each journey with a full charge and was getting about 70 miles in good weather. He was paying £90 a month for the battery lease. Other Zoe owner wasn't quite so happy, used it as a second car and was getting around 55 miles, and had a charger in his garage. He also had to pay quite a bit extra to get a 3 pin 13a charging cable, and leased the batteries for £70 a month. He seemed very disappointed with the car and far preferred his Prius.

 

Our local council have a fleet of Leaf's (leaves?) and the little Mitsubishi things. All the staff hate them and they are forever having issues with the charging and charging points.

 

Tesla's are awesome. Just awesome. You gotta drive one if you get the chance. Supercharger network is making them far easier to own.

 

BMW i3's are brilliant too- drove one at Frankfurt a couple of years back, and they really are brilliant little things, but at 30 large you really have to believe this is the way forward. i8 is a work of art. Even better in the flesh than the photos.

 

I'm reserving comment on if I would spend my own money on one for a good few years, but I'm coming round to the thought that motoring isn't dying, just changing. If they can sort out the range...


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#64 OFFLINE   Timewaster

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 08:32 PM

I don't think that being electric makes any difference to the fact that Renaults are a bit shonky and BMWs are better.
Nissans are unremarkable.

Teslas are a game changer. And the CEO is apparently more worried about the progress of mankind than profit.
By the time my kids are driving I expect electric will be the norm.
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#65 ONLINE   dollywobbler

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 08:40 PM

I'm a member on the Speak EV forum and I must admit, charging is looking like being more problematic. Infrastructure just isn't keeping up, so folk often have to queue at chargers, or get blocked by twats in combustion engined motors, or get miffed with the hybrid people getting in the way when they still have engines, or the chargers just break - and there's often only one at each location.

 

I still want one though. If I ever manage to get £5000 together, it'll be a difficult choice about whether to spend it getting the 2CV back on the road, or buy my first electric car...


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#66 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 09:11 PM

Given that the Grid was low on power last week even though it was as warm as mid-May, the last thing the government wants in the near future is tens or hundreds of thousands of EVs being plugged in at 6pm when commuters arrive home.

 

We need a Smart Grid to be rolled out before they're too numerous - I reckon sales will be actively discouraged by Whitehall with an ongoing lack of charging infrastructure. Spare energy from plugged-in EVs should provide a great buffer for the energy spikes.

 

Buying in more gas/coal to keep a load of EVs running makes little sense, we need to be investing in Renewable Energy, like almost every other developed nation is, from France and Italy to Germany and Sweden. Otherwise there's a good chance that in another 15 years, our prices will be rising faster than anyone else's. People will reminisce about 15p/kWh when they had their first EV, grumbling about the next announced price rise from 43p to 47p.


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#67 OFFLINE   Barry Cade.

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 09:31 PM

From what I'm led to believe, electric cars in Japan must be able to power your house for 24 hours if there is a power outage. Always wondered what the story was with the Leaf ad on TV. Need to look into that moar.


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#68 OFFLINE   Pillock

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 09:45 PM

Dude, you're in the wrong thread. That sounds just like something out of the Automotive Bullshit Facts thread :)

 

If we had a power cut, I'd just sit outside in the car, engine running, tablet and MiFi plugged into the fag lighter. That's more or less the same thing.


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#69 OFFLINE   cort16

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 09:52 PM

That thing with the leaf is true. During hurricane sandy a couple of years ago a few enterprising owners powered their homes for a couple of days from their's leaf's. You can buy a Nissan approved kit to do it in Japan. Like a UPS for your house.

 

http://www.wired.co....ic-vehicle-hack

 

http://www.nissan-gl...20530-01-e.html


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I estimate this car needs £3000 maybe £4000 spending on it to get it rite and when this is done it will be wotrth about £1500!!


#70 OFFLINE   Barry Cade.

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 10:26 PM

That thing with the leaf is true. During hurricane sandy a couple of years ago a few enterprising owners powered their homes for a couple of days from their's leaf's. You can buy a Nissan approved kit to do it in Japan. Like a UPS for your house.

 

http://www.wired.co....ic-vehicle-hack

 

http://www.nissan-gl...20530-01-e.html

http://www.autocar.c...power-your-home

 

Japan

Japan currently is a leader in the electric vehicle industry. This may allow the country to pioneer new V2G technology for the mainstream. In order to meet the 2030 target of 10% of Japan's energy being generated by renewable resources, a cost of $71.1 billion will be required for the upgrades of existing grid infrastructure. The Japanese charging infrastructure market is projected to grow from $118.6 million to $1.2 billion between 2015 and 2020 (ZigBee 2010). Starting in 2012, Nissan plans to bring to market a kit compatible with the LEAF EV that will be able to provide power back into a Japanese home. Currently, there is a prototype being tested in Japan. Average Japanese homes draw 10 to 12 KWh, and with the LEAF's 24 KWh battery capacity, this kit could potentially provide 2 days of power (Howard 2011). Production in additional markets will follow upon Nissan's ability to properly complete adaptations.

 

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#71 ONLINE   dollywobbler

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 10:34 PM

Given that the Grid was low on power last week even though it was as warm as mid-May, the last thing the government wants in the near future is tens or hundreds of thousands of EVs being plugged in at 6pm when commuters arrive home.

 

We need a Smart Grid to be rolled out before they're too numerous - I reckon sales will be actively discouraged by Whitehall with an ongoing lack of charging infrastructure. Spare energy from plugged-in EVs should provide a great buffer for the energy spikes.

 

Buying in more gas/coal to keep a load of EVs running makes little sense, we need to be investing in Renewable Energy, like almost every other developed nation is, from France and Italy to Germany and Sweden. Otherwise there's a good chance that in another 15 years, our prices will be rising faster than anyone else's. People will reminisce about 15p/kWh when they had their first EV, grumbling about the next announced price rise from 43p to 47p.

 

Good job the government is doing so much to boost renewables then. Oh, hold on...

 

And I wouldn't put it past them to just not put two and two together regarding EV demand and worryingly low electricity capacity...


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#72 OFFLINE   cort1977

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 10:45 PM

Leafs are getting fairly cheap here now (well under $10000).   Wife is going back to work after Christmas and I'm seriously thinking about one as a commuter for her.


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#73 OFFLINE   cort16

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 10:51 PM

When I went to the factory the showed how the batteries are just a bolt in module on the LEAF's. I wonder if there'll be an option to upgrade the batteries to newer technology once the lease is up?


I estimate this car needs £3000 maybe £4000 spending on it to get it rite and when this is done it will be wotrth about £1500!!


#74 OFFLINE   Slartibartfast

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 10:52 PM

I had a leaf on test for a week. I loved it. I'd have one now if I could afford one.

#75 OFFLINE   Tayne

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 01:29 AM

Given that the Grid was low on power last week even though it was as warm as mid-May, the last thing the government wants in the near future is tens or hundreds of thousands of EVs being plugged in at 6pm when commuters arrive home.

 

 

 

The grid has a 20% variation between peak and off-peak usage.

 

Replacing all the petrol cars with electric would result in a 12% additional load on the grid.

 

Assuming the bulk of these are charged over night its perfectly doable...

 

However, I agree the government will most likely fuck it all up.


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#76 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 07:18 PM

The 12% figure suggests only a little over a quarter of all road fuel is used in cars, and that EVs would use 60% of the energy their petrol/diesel equivalents do.

 

If just half of all road transport (which uses 25% of all our petroleum products) switched to Grid power, they would represent more than a third of all the electricity we use. As we move away from burning coal and nuclear stations close down, there won't be a surplus of grid power at night as we've been used to.

 

It's a massive proportion to be found - we need to start planning now, if prices aren't to rocket even more than they will, thanks to the Tory investment in a new nuke. Perhaps politicians in the UK aren't bothered with cheap power anymore, given we've lost most of our high-energy industry?

 

 

graph.PNG


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#77 OFFLINE   Timewaster

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 08:01 PM

All this talk of running your house off the car is well and good but would require a fairly extensive alteration to your electricity supply and meter in every household.

That's not going to happen overnight either.
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#78 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 08:46 PM

It's not much of a job - the cost savings will soon encourage people to have the work done.



#79 OFFLINE   willswitchengage

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 09:31 PM

Has anybody ever ridden an electric bicycle before? They really bomb along

 

Personally I think that the car fundamentally needs to be doomed, regardless of fuel. They only proliferated in the west due to the prevalence of suburbia - town planning that necessitated personal transport due to their nature being public transport and walking unfriendly. The world is becoming more urbanised and thus the car is becoming redundant.

 

Look at how about half the world subsidises fuel (part to make the economy appear more advanced by increasing car ownership, part to bribe them electorate buy giving the free stuff) and you see how skewed Governments are in terms of encouraging people to drive:

 

FuelSubsidies2.gif

 

I will avoid this thread in future as I don't doubt there will be some serious debates* later...

 

JUSTICE FOR CHED


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#80 ONLINE   dollywobbler

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 09:43 PM

That's a very fair and valid point. If anything, EVs are seriously bad news for those trying to rid cities of the frankly unnecessary numbers of cars, because the 'environment' argument goes out of the window (because the emissions are now a problem out of town, near the power stations). The fact remains that instead of a congestion charge, what London should have done is ban cars completely. A fleet of trolleybuses to use the now-empty roads would make things much more lovely.

tumblr_lng8b6dyrp1qzypppo1_500.jpg

 

That picture neatly demonstrates why there is so much congestion. Cars are bloody huge! Even if they were all Smarts. Of course the problem is, cars are still the preferred option. Personal space and flexibility being the main reasons I assume. Frankly, I cannot see why anyone would want to spend half their time sitting in traffic jams but meh.


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#81 OFFLINE   cort16

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 09:54 PM

All this talk of running your house off the car is well and good but would require a fairly extensive alteration to your electricity supply and meter in every household.

That's not going to happen overnight either.

 

 

In Japan there's quite often power outages so a lot of homes have hookups for external power feeds I think the LEAF is just another source.

 

Once cars are driverless the traffic will be much better because the cars aren't driven by puny humans. Once they drop you off they'll be able to fuck off and find a charging point 5 miles away if need be so the charging points are so much of an issue.

The energy issue is a serious one but no more serious than the cars ran on fossil fuels. The advantage being if there's an advance in technology such as them cracking nuclear fusion/warp drive then everyone can take advantage of it. Also all this energy use is assumed on current battery technology efficiency  Look what tesla are doing now v the leaf that was new just a few years ago. I could be being thick but how much extra juice does a tesla absorb v a leaf on a miles by mile basis?


I estimate this car needs £3000 maybe £4000 spending on it to get it rite and when this is done it will be wotrth about £1500!!


#82 ONLINE   dollywobbler

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 09:57 PM

That's a bit like comparing a Maserati's fuel consumption with a Vauxhall Astra's. A quick Google suggests 3-3.5 miles per kWh on a Model S though, whereas I was getting 4.5-5 miles in the e-Golf. Not sure I recorded what I'd achieved in the LEAF, which was also driven in November rather than summer.


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#83 OFFLINE   J-Rod

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 09:58 PM

In some ways, I yearn for the days of self driving cars... so the tools that insist on having the latest driveway ornament can stop showing off their non-existent driving skills by driving the bloody things (badly) about 2" from your rear bumper.  

 

Only thing is... we'll have to work The Three Seashells  then too. Hmmm.. 



#84 OFFLINE   cort16

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 10:00 PM

That's a bit like comparing a Maserati's fuel consumption with a Vauxhall Astra's. A quick Google suggests 3-3.5 miles per kWh on a Model S though, whereas I was getting 4.5-5 miles in the e-Golf. Not sure I recorded what I'd achieved in the LEAF, which was also driven in November rather than summer.

 

So basically the advanced battery technology just gives you a bigger tank?


I estimate this car needs £3000 maybe £4000 spending on it to get it rite and when this is done it will be wotrth about £1500!!


#85 OFFLINE   forddeliveryboy

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 11:04 PM

Teslas use the same batteries as your laptop, 18650s. Lots of them, the clever bit is keeping them electrically balanced.

 

I don't think Brits will be prised away from motorised personal transport, DW. The key is to make commuter/repmobiles a third the size and a quarter of the mass. I think there'll be a coming together of tech to create something quite superb compared with today's lardy, numb and oversized steel crates. There'll still be the need for something to carry families and dogs around at weekends, though - and everyone needs that at the same time.



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Posted 11 November 2015 - 11:25 PM

True. After all, if self driving cars are so clever, we won't need to weigh cars down with safety kit...

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#87 OFFLINE   Tayne

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 12:11 AM

So basically the advanced battery technology just gives you a bigger tank?

 

A Tesla Model S can be had with a 90Kw battery pack, the Leaf has only just gained a 30kw battery pack.


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#88 OFFLINE   Tayne

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 01:33 AM

Interesting article about the way Ze Germans are dealing with energy.

 

http://ngm.nationalg...revolution-text


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#89 OFFLINE   Noel Tidybeard

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 02:54 AM

I'm a member on the Speak EV forum and I must admit, charging is looking like being more problematic. Infrastructure just isn't keeping up, so folk often have to queue at chargers, or get blocked by twats in combustion engined motors, or get miffed with the hybrid people getting in the way when they still have engines, or the chargers just break - and there's often only one at each location.

 

I still want one though. If I ever manage to get £5000 together, it'll be a difficult choice about whether to spend it getting the 2CV back on the road, or buy my first electric car...

or electrifying the 2cv :ph34r:


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#90 OFFLINE   Pillock

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 09:07 AM

Frankly, I cannot see why anyone would want to spend half their time sitting in traffic jams but meh.

 

Because it's not just about going into cities. It's about getting to the city too. It's about where the people who have ended up in the cities have started their journey.

I spend my days going into semi-central locations, mostly retail parks. To get there I inevitably use the motorways, which are inevitably rammed at 8am and 4.30pm on my way home.

So my first argument is, I could not do that on public transport. My nearest railway station is 14 miles away, which takes 1hr10 on a bus because it goes everywhere on the way, because that way they can limit the number of buses they run to cover the areas that need a bus service. Then I'm on a train and will have the same problem the other end, because trains don't go anywhere useful any more - they dump you in a big city. So it's trains plus buses which means loads of time.

Second argument is, that in my car in a traffic jam it's my space - I'm not getting irritated by people on the phone, or smelly people, or hearing the tssh-tssh-tssh of someone's headphones. Yet I can listen to music, talk on the phone or fart whenever I want.

 

London is perhaps the exception with a genuinely good tube service, but in other cities if you banned the car you'd have no other good way of getting into the city. We need the trams and trains to be useful first, and THEN we can consider getting rid of personal wheeled bubbles.


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