VEG friendly motors.... What runs on what?

[Lankytim]

_{Hi gang,}

 

_{I'm currently running my 2.5 XM on filtered waste veg oil, and apart from a slight seep from the injector pump when the oil is a bit too thick when cold it's been absolutely fine. It's got me wondering though. which cars are able to run on veg without too much trouble? I know anything old with a Bosch pump is OK but what about newer cars? OBV common rail motors are out but trawling Google hasn't really made things any clearer, e.g some sources recon the Saab 2.2 Tid is fine on veg while others say it definitely isn't, same with late diesel Primeras.}

 

_{SO... what have you run on veg without too much issue?}

[messerschmitt owner]

Xm 2.1 with Bosch pumps. Too much veg though does cause issues. I run max 50%

[Lankytim]

What sort of issues? I've run my 2.5 XM on 100% recently and apart from the aforementioned weep its fine. I mix a bit of diesel/petrol or white spirit in now and it does seem to help. Even on 100% veg at -1 it still starts without too much trouble. I haven't tried it when it's really cold though!

[messerschmitt owner]

Difficult to start. Poor running and propensity to cut out until engine warmed up and less power initially. These on cars with good glow plugs, reliable pumps with no leaks, new filters and decent fuel lines with no air leaks. Not an issue if running on 50% or less but definitely if over 70%.

[messerschmitt owner]

Oh. Once warmed up on higher ratios it was fine. Just not for the first five mins.

[twosmoke300]

I believe the best cars on veg are the old mercs with the inline injector pumps . Not sure of the w numbers but 190 , 250 and 300d's come to mind.

Deffo wouldn't run the Saab/ Vauxhall 2.2 on veg. The vp30 / vp44 type electronic pump isn't the most robust at the best of times .

[Rusty_Rocket]

When you say 'veg' do you mean WVO, SVO or bio diesel? As above, common-rail stuff should only really drink pump diesel and even then, high and low pressure pumps/ injectors etc still shat themselves for no good reason.  To be safe, we're mainly limited to traditional Bosch pumps and the odd Japanese copies (Zexel?) for SVO/ WVO.

Correctly made bio is supossedly safe in most older stuff but i still wouldn't use it with a Lucas ip.

 

Almost as if manufacturers deliberately developed fuel systems that would only run on the expensive/ non-renewable stuff..

[Cavcraft]

Common rails won't take it for long, it clogs up the injectors and pumps and fucks them up, at least according to a local diesel specialists.

 

I always think that if a car can take veg oil, it should take WVO, SVO and bio fuel. HOWEVER....a local garage stopped selling bio fuel as the quality was really hit and miss, so you might just as well 'make' WVO yourself or just use SVO.

[Lankytim]

When I say veg I mean, Straight Veg Oil or Waste Veg Oil, once the WVO is filtered and dewatered it's pretty much identical SVO anyway, although the XM does seem to run better on waste oil rather than the fresh stuff for some reason. Biodiesel is different to veg, as far as I know pretty much any diesel will run on it. We're running a JTD Fiat Multipla on it and it's fine, no problems whatsoever.

[barmatt]

I've run 2 Discos on mixtures of svo wvo without any issues apart from regular fuel filter changes. 200 & 300 tdi engines love a bit of the veggie stuff.

[catsinthewelder]

My Disco has enjoyed the drop of SVO that I got before Tesco's stopped selling it at £1pl.

 

I have the fryer to fuel tank book somewhere and apparently 80's/ early 90's VW/Audi and Mercs are happy to om nom nom straight veg if it's not too cold.  A friend was running one of those Estima things on 100% veg for yonks too.

 

Bio-diesel is supposed to behave like pump diesel and be fine for 100% all year use.  It does contain ethanol though which will slowly disolve older natural rubber seals and fuel lines.

 

Probably worth repeating the warning not to use veg and old engine oil in the same vehicle as they will emulsify and cause bother.

[Lankytim]

Yeah, I tried old engine Oil and veg and it worked for about 10 miles! A new filter fixed it though.

 

I've heard about the ethanol melting rubber before a infact I spilled some bio on a bungee cord and within a week or so the rubber inside had turned to chewing gum!

 

Surely most modern stuff is designed to take a certain amount of bio so it would be designed with ethanol in mind?

[Junkman]

Pretty much all diesels are suitable for UVO/WVO/VVO, however, the viscosity should be lowered by heating the oil.

This is commonly done with a heat exchanger in the exhaust.

The engine is started on fossil diesel or SVO/PPO, and once a certain operating temperature is reached, the system switches to chippie fat.

Some car manufacturers also recommend blending in some additives, especially for the DI Diesels.

[Bobthebeard]

I've run 2 Discos on mixtures of svo wvo without any issues apart from regular fuel filter changes. 200 & 300 tdi engines love a bit of the veggie stuff.

Td5 Discos hate it. Or mine did at the time.

I once tried it at 30% veg oil and it ground to a halt later in the day. Much bleeding and flushing ensued.

[Lankytim]

I've heard that modern stuff won't last long even with a twin Tank kit fitted as some elements of the veg don't burn properly in them and cause ring gumming, leading to loss of compression and kitten massacre.

[Rusty_Rocket]

Our Discoverys and Defenders at work all run 100% bio, all year round.

 

Re the rubber components rotting, the only problem we seem to have is with the injector leak-off pipes on the 200/ 300TDis.  We've covered well over 100,000 miles collectively on bio now and have had no problems apart from the above.

*TOP TIP*- replace the leak-off pipes with some axle breather pipe (if you have old Land Rovers knocking about, you'll know what I mean).  It is the correct bore and lasts forever.

 

Also, rodents just love the taste and smell of the stuff.  I left my 106 at work over Christmas and the little buggers chewed right through the fuel line and had a right old feast on the fuel 

[willswitchengage]

I've heard that modern stuff won't last long even with a twin Tank kit fitted as some elements of the veg don't burn properly in them and cause ring gumming, leading to loss of compression and kitten massacre.

 

Direct injection combustion chambers typically aren't veg-friendly as they are designed for fast fuel burn (although some older designs are). Old IDI engines, such as the Peugeot XUD, have a distinctly different and longer rattle tone than your DI engine. The combustion occurs over a longer time.

[Dave_Q]

Definitely best to stick to Bosch pumps for this sort of action.

 

I ran a Lucas pump XUD Berlingo on 100% commercially bought biodiesel and had the pump off to replace seals 3 times in a year.

 

I've currently got a PD Skoda which I'm told is ok to run on biodiesel but I'm not risking it.

 

A lot of newer stuff can theoretically run on veg but with a twin tank system where start up and cool down are done on diesel.

 

Personally I wouldn't risk anything PD or common rail on non standard fuels due to the expense when it goes wrong.

[Dave_Q]

The Elsbett site used to be used as a reference by biodiesel bods, as it used to have a list of all vehicles and whether they are suitable for oil.

 

It doesn't have a vehicle list anymore but says this instead.

 

Single tank - just lob any old oil in the tank.

Two tank - needs a separate tank of diesel for start up.

 

 

ELSBETT single-tank systems are available (and recommended) for:

 

Pre-Chamber diesel engines of all makes, except those with inline injection pumps or rotary injection pumps made by Lucas, CAV, Stanadyne, RotoDiesel and Delphi. TDI or Direct Injection diesel engines made by Volkswagen, some Volvo and European Ford with Bosch rotary injection pumps.

 

ELSBETT two-tank systems are available for:

 

All other diesel engines, except those with inline injection pumps or rotary injection pumps made by Lucas, CAV, Stanadyne, RotoDiesel and Delphi. Newer engines, like those with Common-Rail and Unit Injector (â€ÂPumpe/Düseâ€Â) systems.

 

 

 

[Lankytim]

OK, what does PD mean?

[Dave_Q]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_injector

 

Each injector is a cam driven pump which ups the injection pressure to around 2000 bar (compared to about 220 bar in a rotary pumped engine)

 

Basically increased injection pressure is bad for veg as it's less likely to stay liquid and more likely to cause problems.

 

Rotary pump 200 bar > PD 2000 bar > Common rail 20000 bar+.

[twosmoke300]

Basically just an updated version of the old Cummins pt injector system.

Wonder if anyone's ever put a Jake brake on a vw pd ?

😃

[FredTransit]

Bosch pumped transit Di engines run fine on 50/50 veg!

[oman5]

Volvo D24 ok on 50/50. You need strong glow plugs with this engine at the best of times, though.

[Lacquer Peel]

Fabia SDI = FAB ON VEG.

I just completed a 1200 mile trip in mine, running on 100% waste vegetable oil. It hasn't missed a beat, and averages 55MPG (my oil reserve is finite). It's one of the best engines I've tried on veg, and I've tried a lot.

[dome]

Fish faced Ford Scorpios with the VM lump are supposed to be very good too-they also have a built in heat exchanger so no need to add one.

I've ran a couple of old Mercs on it-the fuel pumps will need the rubber O rings replaced and on my C250 the thicker Veg gave me no end of trouble with air getting drawn in somewhere. My old w124 300D ran perfectly on it once I'd got through about 10 inline filters in the first few months...

[Ratdat]

What about old Indenor lumps  ...ok on veg? My mate in France is looking to buy a Pug J9 van which (I think) come with a 2.1 Indenor.

[jonathan_dyane]

I would stand to be corrected but I think the Indenor engines all had the 'Rotodiesel' injector pump which is essentially a rebadged and french made Lucas CAV rotary pump and as such veg will kill it

[Inspector Morose]

Having mucked about with CAV pumps for as long as I can remember, as long as you could get the oil down to diesel like consistency, it might have stood a fighting chance running on veg but the problem is it uses the fuel it's pumping to lubricate, cool and as a "rack" damper too so it's no wonder they can't cope in reality.

 

Injector wise, older injector set ups used the fuel pressure to raise a needle, called a pintle valve, at the end of the injector to form the spray pattern. This is good news for veg lovers as it effectively pokes out any deposits every spray and reduces chances of gumming the injectors. These injectors usually are found on indirect injection set ups such as the XUD.

More modern, direct injection set ups use very fine holes in the end of the injector to spray the fuel in and therefore stand a greater chance of gumming up with crud.

 

I've managed to run a Gardner in a bus on SVO and I've also run older B series cummins on it as well. The problem with the Gardner is that it really doesn't get hot enough to heat the fuel well enough for good combustion without using either a separate heating element or running the fuel lines around the exhaust manifold (strangely, the mininstry didn't like that modification on a bus).

[Lankytim]

Wow, that last post was really informative! 

 

This spares Multipla I've just bought had a weird EGR valve cooler in the boot (with approx 60% of the rest of the engine). Its a long stainless thing with water pipes on it. I'm wodering if I can rig it up to some how heat veg oil before it goes to the injector pump. Possibly not without alot of faffing about!