Is this legal?

[philsford]

As the title says really, would it be legal to use this or is it recovery only?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NO-RESERVE-TOWING-DOLLY-TRAILER-WITH-BRAKE-LEGAL-CAR-VAN-RECOVERY-/121320699927?pt=UK_Recovery_Tools&hash=item1c3f46f817#ht_313wt_1348

 

A few years ago I sold my car trailer as the brakes didn't work and I didn't use it much along with I didn't really have a suitable tow vehicle and it was costing me money to rent the garage it was in. However I miss the fact that I carn't go anywhere and buy anything and am just toying with idea of buying something.

 

 

[davidfowler2000]

Don't see why it wouldn't be legal. Don't the AA still use towing dollies for suspended tows?

[stuboy]

Don't see why it wouldn't be legal. Don't the AA still use towing dollies for suspended tows?

[red5]

As long as the vehicle you are owing is taxed, mot'd and insured I don't see why not. If that is the issue then it's trailer time again.

[philsford]

My first line of thought was what I would be towing would be over 750kg so needs brakes, which the dolly in the link has. But then I thought does a dolly have a max gross weight for the vosa to do you for? If I was towing with my car which I think can tow upto 1800kg would be ok with an old escort and a dolly but if the plate says it has a max of say 2500kg I am liable for a fine should I get stopped as I have the potential to be overweight? So that would mean I need a big tow vehicle which then makes me think I might aswell have a trailer if I need to upgrade the tow vehicle which would not limit me to road legal cars.

[Cavcraft]

It's all to do with MGW or maximum train weight, or something like that. I looked into briefly a few times and it's about as easy to understand as iTunes in Latin.

[Richard]

It leaves two unbraked wheels on the ground, I'd say that means it's only legal for recovery.

 

The truth is that nobody knows what's legal and what isn't. You could ask every Chief Constable and VOSA inspector in the country what the rules are and not get the same answer twice.

[dave21478]

They are not legal for transporting a car. The towed cars plated gross weight is what counts and since 99% of cars have a gross weight over 750kgs, your outfit will need trailer brakes. While that dolly has brakes, the cars trailing wheels are unbraked so it doesnt meet requirements.

Its the same deal with A-frames, it all comes down to gross weight and brake systems.

 

They can only be used to recover a broken down car to a place of safety.

 

 

 

On the other hand, people (including myself) use them all the time and kittens rarely get killed. Chances are you would get away with it and never have an issue - but it only takes one clued up cozzer or a VOSA checkpoint to really spoil your afternoon, and if the worst were to happen and you had an accident severe enough to require a police investigation, you would probably find yourself up shit creek without a boat, never mind the paddle.

 

IMO get a trailer - much more useful. A dolly is all well and good, but not much use for shifting a barn-find old snotter with flat, bald tyres and no floor-pan.

[forddeliveryboy]

It's all to do with MGW or maximum train weight, or something like that. I looked into briefly a few times and it's about as easy to understand as iTunes in Latin.

 

Latin is more logical than iTunes.

[dieselnutjob]

the problem is that trailers are so heavy.  When I asked around a car trailer is 800kg on its own, so with a 1500kg 604 on it that takes the whole think over what can be towed by anything less that a big 4x4.

 

I don't know why car trailers need to be 800kg.  If they could be 500kg then I could use one as I can legally tow 2000kg with the 806.

[forddeliveryboy]

Most things are not totally legal in a society which is based on fear - fortunately, there are still some police officers with a bit of common sense.

[Benjyp10]

As a traffic cop, in short not legal except for recovery, hence AA use them. Those cheap fold out dollies are illegal full stop. If you use a cheap dolly, the car being towed needs to be insured and MOT'd and be braked, so effectively the towing vehicle needs to be able to brake the towed vehicle, which nobody does. I've taken 3 outfits off the A1 this week...if it don't look right, it ain't right!

Then there's the B +E to consider which people forget. I could bore you with the law, but won't. The only way a dolly like this one described could ever be legal is that somehow you could brake the towed vehicles brakes. That's before you look at GVW, MAMS, MTW's etc........enjoy

[Benjyp10]

If you use a dolly to buy a ban find( yawn) and drag its arse up or down the country then IF you do get stopped, you lose the towed car, seized 165 RTA. 6 points for no insurance, £300 fine £100 fine for no MOT and then left with a seizure bill of £175 plus £20 a day storage. You takes yer chance.....I wouldn't.

[rml2345]

Latin is more logical than iTunes.

Mystic Meg is more logical than iTunes.

I think a car trailer and good tow vehicle would be the best thing for towing a car as it would avoid arguing with VOSA/Police about whether it's a car being recovered or an unbraked trailer.

Is it possible to hire a self drive transporter?

[forddeliveryboy]

As a traffic cop, in short not legal except for recovery, hence AA use them. Those cheap fold out dollies are illegal full stop. If you use a cheap dolly, the car being towed needs to be insured and MOT'd and be braked, so effectively the towing vehicle needs to be able to brake the towed vehicle, which nobody does. I've taken 3 outfits off the A1 this week...if it don't look right, it ain't right!

Then there's the B +E to consider which people forget. I could bore you with the law, but won't. The only way a dolly like this one described could ever be legal is that somehow you could brake the towed vehicles brakes. That's before you look at GVW, MAMS, MTW's etc........enjoy

 

Not sure exactly what a 'cheap dolly' is @wonders how many dodgy HGVs/caravans/nearly new cars with knackered suspension are stopped@ and wonder if the inference is that a cheap dolly's load requires insurance whereas an expensive dolly's one does not? Clarification would be useful. Where do A-frames stand? Are more expensive ones more legal, or less illegal?

 

I'm totally behind clearing our roads of dangerous traffic, but wonder if the truly dangerous stuff is often invisible to plod?

[martybabes]

As a traffic cop, in short not legal except for recovery, hence AA use them.

 

 

So, if you can demonstrate that the car is being recovered (and I doubt there is a legal definition for "recovery") then it would seem no offence is being committed.

 

If you use a dolly to buy a ban find( yawn) and drag its arse up or down the country then IF you do get stopped, you lose the towed car, seized 165 RTA. 6 points for no insurance, £300 fine £100 fine for no MOT and then left with a seizure bill of £175 plus £20 a day storage.

 

And how is this not caught by the term "recovery"?  If you are collecting an un-taxed vehicle, presumably for repair (because it is being towed!!!) I would say that fits pretty neatly into the meaning of recovery.   

[warren t claim]

If you use a dolly to buy a ban find( yawn) and drag its arse up or down the country then IF you do get stopped, you lose the towed car, seized 165 RTA. 6 points for no insurance, £300 fine £100 fine for no MOT and then left with a seizure bill of £175 plus £20 a day storage. You takes yer chance.....I wouldn't.

So when does a car cease to be a car and become a trailer? Would a cut down van converted to being a trailer fall foul of the law?

[dave21478]

As a traffic cop, in short not legal except for recovery, hence AA use them. Those cheap fold out dollies are illegal full stop. If you use a cheap dolly, the car being towed needs to be insured and MOT'd and be braked, so effectively the towing vehicle needs to be able to brake the towed vehicle, which nobody does. I've taken 3 outfits off the A1 this week...if it don't look right, it ain't right!

Then there's the B +E to consider which people forget. I could bore you with the law, but won't. The only way a dolly like this one described could ever be legal is that somehow you could brake the towed vehicles brakes. That's before you look at GVW, MAMS, MTW's etc........enjoy

 

There are plenty of A-frames that do work the towed vehicles brakes - mostly the motorhome perverts who tow a little car behind them on hols. Since its always the same car, various kits are available to connect to the cars brake pedal. Better universal a-frames can do this too - mine is an ex-RAC one which has an over-run hitch, a big bowden cable that i pass through the towed cars window and a lever thing that straps to the drivers seat and brake pedal, so when I brake the towed car brakes.

All very fancy, but still not legal though. As soon as one of these things....dolly or a-frame....are attached, the towed car is classed as a trailer and the problem is that the cars brakes, even if they are operated by the towing frame, do not meet trailer brake efficiency standards. All trailers made after the late '80s need to have auto reverse brakes, which is not possible on a car and need to be at least 50% efficient, which the rears of a car will never meet.

Its close to being legal, but not quite there.....The manufacturers of the motorhome kits always state that as long is it brakes, its legal but they fail to mention the rest. Obviously its not in their interests to do so.

 

 

 

 

So, if you can demonstrate that the car is being recovered (and I doubt there is a legal definition for "recovery") then it would seem no offence is being committed.

 

 

And how is this not caught by the term "recovery"?  If you are collecting an un-taxed vehicle, presumably for repair (because it is being towed!!!) I would say that fits pretty neatly into the meaning of recovery.   

 

 

As far as I know, you need to be a registered recovery operator with the relevant insurance cover.

 

 

 

 

So when does a car cease to be a car and become a trailer? Would a cut down van converted to being a trailer fall foul of the law?

 

 

 

This depends - since it is a home made trailer, you should fit a weight plate. If it is over 750kgs gross, you need auto-reverse brakes that are at least 50% efficient. A car or vans rear brakes will never meet this. If its under 750kgs gross, you are ok - no brakes needed legally. 

On the downside, the weight of a back half of a car or van subtracted from 750kgs generally doesnt leave much load capacity. A possible solution is to bin off the original suspension and fit a proper trailer axle/brakes/hubs which meets the brake requirements. Starts getting pricey though.

[dave21478]

the problem is that trailers are so heavy.  When I asked around a car trailer is 800kg on its own, so with a 1500kg 604 on it that takes the whole think over what can be towed by anything less that a big 4x4.

 

I don't know why car trailers need to be 800kg.  If they could be 500kg then I could use one as I can legally tow 2000kg with the 806.

 

Lider do a range of lighter weight twin axle trailers. They weigh about 500kgs unladen and have gross weights of 2 or 2.5 tons, so you have a load capacity of about 1.5 or 2 tons.

The 2.5 ton one still needs a 4x4 or big van to tow it, but there are maybe saloon cars out there that can pull 2 tons? I dont know offhand.

 

Single axle transporters generally weigh about 400kgs but they are generally only rated to 1.5 tons or so, which means you only have about 1 ton of capacity, which is not enough for most average cars.

 

 

 

Its a shame as A-frames are a relative joy to use. I know that if the legal side is left out of the equation and I had to move a car any distance I would rather a-frame it that put it on a trailer. An a-frame is stable and comparatively easy to tow, but trailers which immediately raise the towed car 50cm+ in the air are inherently less stable, and can lead to all sorts of towing nightmares like snaking etc. The biggest advantage of a trailer is the ability to shift stuff that wont roll, whether its OMGBRANFINDyo, or just a car with auto gearbox. 

[Richard]

Can these ridiculous motorhome/small car combos even be reversed at all? In my experience it's difficult to reverse with even a normal trailer that's much shorter than the towing vehicle- if you can't see the car on the A-frame and you have two points of articulation to consider I can't see how it could be done.

[Joey spud]

 

This is my trailer,no brakes are fitted/required as its for moving broken down taxed vehicles only (a loop hole in the law allows this so you can go over the 750kg limit without brakes).

The law says if a broken down vehicle is untaxed then it cant be legally towed with any of its own wheels on the ground and needs a total lift recovery.

I am also limited to what i can tow,say my van loaded with tools,parts,and passengers and weighs 3100kg the trailer is another 100kg and my max train mass is 5300kg so i have in theory 2100kg spare to put on the trailer.

But you also have to look at the max axle weight allowed for the trailer axle and tyres and not exceed it by looking at the broken down vehicles vin plate and working out if its front axle weight isn't over 1000kg. (in some ways an A frame is a better bit of kit).

 

That dolly on ebay looks ok apart from it looks like the wheels have no way of self steering which would make it a bitch to pilot around tight corners,but it has got a decent tow hitch on it,some on ebay have cheap max 750kg pressed steel jobbies fitted.

 

If you use a big tow vehicle and a working trailer board and look right then plod down here leave you alone but if it goes tits up and shuts a busy road or someone get hurt then i guess your arse is theirs.

[Lankytim]

Surely the towed car becomes a trailer and so doesn't need tax, mot or insurance? All that's wrong with them is the brakes don't work, so you'd get done for non functioning brakes.

[twosmoke300]

O

As a traffic cop...if it don't look right, it ain't right!

 

 

Erm .... no

Just because in your opinion as a traffic.officer something doesnt look right doesnt make it illegal. What makes it not look right to you ? Colour , make etc.

Its down to the written law surely , not down to what you would make fit the situation cos you dont like the look of it.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

If you use a dolly to buy a ban find( yawn) and drag its arse up or down the country then IF you do get stopped, you lose the towed car, seized 165 RTA. 6 points for no insurance, £300 fine £100 fine for no MOT and then left with a seizure bill of £175 plus £20 a day storage. You takes yer chance.....I wouldn't.

an A frame can be used sensibly and perfectly safely, i would say its inherently much safer than a trailer - much more stable for a start. If you have a sensible weight balance between tower and towee, decent working light board, good tyres on the towee of course, i would say you have the safest rig possible. If i was shifting a car about on the A (or even a braked dolly) while observing these rules and I met a copper who decided to chuck all that at me for something i think is perfectly safe I'd probably just give up entirely and kill myself.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Mr_Bo11ox

[KruJoe]

Can these ridiculous motorhome/small car [A-frame] combos even be reversed at all? In my experience it's difficult to reverse with even a normal trailer that's much shorter than the towing vehicle- if you can't see the car on the A-frame and you have two points of articulation to consider I can't see how it could be done.

Some VERY skilled drivers can reverse rigs with two articulation points - that's not the problem as much as the fact that the suspension geometry of the towed car becomes antagonistic in reverse. This is because of caster angles etc.

To find out more, find an empty car park, going forwards, put some lock on and let go of the wheel, most cars will straighten up. Try the same backwards, you'll find it soon wants to wind itself to full lock.

On an A-frame, you might get a few feet backwards in a STRAIGHT line, but not much more. Trying to force it will put huge stress on the whole lot. It's most uncooperative, like pushing string. I (in)famously ripped the back axle off a RAV4 while attempting to back up an old Rover.

[dave21478]

Can these ridiculous motorhome/small car combos even be reversed at all? In my experience it's difficult to reverse with even a normal trailer that's much shorter than the towing vehicle- if you can't see the car on the A-frame and you have two points of articulation to consider I can't see how it could be done.

 

No, as mentioned above, an a-frame cant be reversed at all. It will roll dead straight backwards at very low speed, but the slightest turn or even uneven bit of road will push the towed cars steering right over to full lock. With someone sitting in the towed car to steer it, its just about possible to do simple maneuvres with very small steering inputs, but its tricky.

 

Years ago I brought Aberdeen to a standstill at rush hour when I had a slight incident with an a-frame on a busy roundabout; I had to slam on the brakes to avoid being cut up and the towed car pushed the back end out wide, leaving me stopped with one wheel on the roundabout and the towed car jacknifed behind me blocking the roundabout.

I made many new friends* amongst the rush hour commuters as I faffed about uncoupling the cars and driving them off the roundabout one at a time.

[HillmanImp]

 

This is a great shot of some hot dolly action of a broken down car getting recovered from an old Autoshite thread. Nobody died IIRC.

 

Guidance here:

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120606172804/http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

 

 

The use of “dollies†is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation 

of a vehicle from “A†to “Bâ€Â.

 

As a side thought, did this ever get back on the road? RegieRitmo had it didn't he?

[Benjyp10]

So when does a car cease to be a car and become a trailer? Would a cut down van converted to being a trailer fall foul of the law?

There is a definition of recovery which I will post for you. If the front wheels are suspended then it becomes a trailer, not a car. If using one of this cheap £70 stow away A frames, then all 4 wheels are on the ground and the car being towed needs to be insured and MOT'd. It also needs to be braked, so the towing car needs to be able to brake the towed vehicles brakes. In short they are shit and illegal. If you are using a dolly with over run brakes and the front wheels are suspended, then you are unlikely to be stopped. The A frames will get stopped all day every day....if you see a traffic cop....too busy with foreign vehicles and the dodgy Eastern European insurance scams etc.

[Benjyp10]

an A frame can be used sensibly and perfectly safely, i would say its inherently much safer than a trailer - much more stable for a start. If you have a sensible weight balance between tower and towee, decent working light board, good tyres on the towee of course, i would say you have the safest rig possible. If i was shifting a car about on the A (or even a braked dolly) while observing these rules and I met a copper who decided to chuck all that at me for something i think is perfectly safe I'd probably just give up entirely and kill myself.

Richard, whilst I'd agree with you, its just the law and unbelievably you see some totally unsafe wrecks being moved about this way. All well and good until it goes wrong and your up the proverbial shit creak without legal aid....I personally use a trailer all day every day....much safer and no questions. Unless you took your test after 1997 and don't have grandfather rights.

[Benjyp10]

Erm .... no

Just because in your opinion as a traffic.officer something doesnt look right doesnt make it illegal. What makes it not look right to you ? Colour , make etc.

Its down to the written law surely , not down to what you would make fit the situation cos you dont like the look of it.

You mis understand me....we aren't talking picking on motorists. We are talking the obvious...vans sat on their arse=overweight...obvious. Sagging springs=overweight...obvious. So if it don't look right, then normally it isn't. It has nothing to do with colour, race, gender, make etc etc. We all see stuff on the road that don't look correct, that's what I mean.