Renault 6TL "Crapaud"

[Eddie Honda]

The other problem is working out which is cylinder 1. That sounds a bit daft

Problem? What problem?

 

I may/may not have banged on enough about it in previous postings.

 

It's dead simple.

 

Doesn't matter which way round or which end of the car a Cleon is fitted. No 1 is nearest flywheel because French.

[michael1703]

British cars are sometimes 1 at the bulkhead as the car industry employed ex aerospace employees and that's how you number a plane

[vulgalour]

Eddie:  Then I should have it correct as I've taken 1 to be at the front of the engine bay nearest the gearbox.  But it's entirely possible I've then got myself turned around following diagrams and various comments.  Had no time to fiddle with it today.

 

You'd be amazed how easy I am to confuse, even with directions.  You can tell me something till you're blue in the face but more often than not it won't go in.  Makes me look like a right thicko.

[junkyarddog]

 

 

You'd be amazed how easy I am to confuse, even with directions.  You can tell me something till you're blue in the face but more often than not it won't go in.  Makes me look like a right thicko.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

You're not alone in that.

 

Yes,it can be frustrating,but stick with it.

You will get there with determination and willpower,just that it may take a while.

Believe me I know.

[mat_the_cat]

I know I'm getting spark to the plugs, we couldn't get those extension tubes to fit but we could pull a plug with its lead and check for spark, which is what we did.  I also know the points are working and I have to assume the condensor is too.

 

I've been caught out making this assumption before, but are you certain you are getting a spark at the plugs under compression? The current finds it much more difficult to jump the gap with a compressed fuel/air mixture in the way, so may seek an easier path e.g. breaking down the coil's internal insulation, tracking via oily dirt on the HT terminals, poorly insulated HT leads etc. You may be able to see the latter by cranking it over in the dark?

 

I found two reasonable ways of checking; one was to put on one of those Colourtune 'spark plugs' which allows a view into the cylinder. Or connect up a timing light and clip the pick-up to each HT lead (including the king lead). I discovered it would trigger the timing light with the spark plug resting on the rocker cover (when I could see the spark anyway) but not with the very same spark plug in the engine!

 

The spark should jump a good 6mm gap in free air if it is strong enough to jump the <1mm gap under compression, so you could try a larger gap with say a nail in the end of the HT lead too?

[Jifflemon]

Have you got a HBOL for it? The timing is pretty straightforward. There's a big slot in the flywheel (get some white paint/tippex on it now).

 

There's two lines on the gearbox in the slot near the camshaft pulley, the left one (as you look at it) is TDC, the right one is 5/6 degrees BTDC (or whatever the timing figure is).

 

So step 1. Line up TDC.

Step 2: Make sure its actually TDC by taking the rocker cover off and making sure both valves are closed.

Step: take cap of dizzy, make sure rotor is point roughly at number 1 plug.

 

Have you had the Camshaft out? If so, the dizzy drive could be out of aligment. From memory (and it's hazy - confirm with the HBOL), when looking down with dizzy in front of you, the drive slot should be parallel to the engine on the lower half. (the slot is offset). You can lift the dizzy drive out with a pair of needle nose pliers if it needs tweaking.

[RayMK]

I assume that the firing order, once you have pinned down which is cylinder number one, rotated the crank to get No.1's valves closed and got the distributor rotational direction sussed, is 1,3,4,2 i.e. the rotor arm will pass the contacts in sequence, the first of which will have an HT lead going to Cylinder No.1, then the second contact will have the HT lead going to Cylinder No.3 etc.    

 

Years ago, I had a horrible Mk1 Fiesta which refused to start and I eventually found out that Ford, for some weird reason, had used a firing order of 1,2,4,3.  Earlier in my experience gathering phase, I was also confused by firing order vs HT leads and distributor cap orientation.  Single cylinder motorcycle engines were much more straightforward  .  

 

Don't be embarrassed by your predicament.  You have already learnt a lot more about engine assembly than your average bod in the street, you can weld (I can't), and you seem to cheerfully take on major projects which further increase your knowledge and experience.  Moral support duly aimed in your direction  . 

[vulgalour]

Only had opportunity for the most cursory of inspections today and that meant I could confirm the plug leads are in the correct order according to the book on the assumption that 1 is nearest the gearbox.  However, I do know that means nothing if the distributor is not correctly aligned or the valves are open when they should be closed, etc.

 

I'll report further when I've had more time available to investigate.  Next job is checking the timing mark on the flywheel through the window in the bellhousing as per the manual and once I know that's correct and the valves are operating as they should, I'll check the distributor and rotor arm orientation.  It looks like I'll have a busy week all this week and I'm at the mercy of the weather so finding the time is a little tricky for me.

[plasticvandan]

i would bin the manual for a day and work from sound principles,ie check what plug lead the rotor is pointing at and check the position of that leads valves to establish whats happening when etc

[vulgalour]

An American once told me "to assume is to make an ass out of you and me".  Not sure what I was doing at the time to warrant the statement, but they're words to live by nonetheless.  It is with this in mind that I approached the engine in the Renault today. It's entirely likely that by assuming I've done things properly I have, in actual fact, done them wrong.  So, established conventions and sound principles out the window, let's do everything by the workshop manual (not a Haynes one) as if I've never, ever seen an engine ever before.  I'm going to be as in depth as I can be so if you see anything really wrong that I've done then you can point it out to me as we go along.

 

First of all, fight with the gear lever extension and lose one nut.  Then fight with the rocker cover and the spark plug for in cylinder 1 at the front of the engine until you can see what you're doing, like so.

 

The manual, it says:

 

 

I will state that at this point I set it to TDC according to the sound principle of putting something in plug hole #1 and slowly turning the engine until the something reaches the top of its travel but before it crushes said something.  That gave me this, which is wrong.

 

Instead, I did it by the book and a fraction of further movement of this.

 

Got us here.  Which is correct, nes pas?

 

Good.  Then the weather started kicking off, typically, blowing the manual and tools all over the shop and occasionally raining in my ear.  So this was going to be fun.  Now, the next thing to check was the distributor which was suspected to be installed incorrectly.  On removal of the distributor via the awkward clamp nut that I haven't got a C shaped spanner (that's the shank of it, not the head) to make life easier with, we can see the drive cog down in the hole.

 

The manual says:

 

So that's wrong. I pulled out the cog and replaced it about three thousand times until it was as the book described above, like so.

 

The the weather kicked off and blew the manual into my rapidly cooling coffee nearly throwing it off the roof and, well, I got a case of all the nopes.  You'll notice as well that I need to remove the drive cog again because I've actually put it in the wrong way around with the 'fat side' towards the bulkhead rather than towards the headlights.  Luckily Mike spotted that in the photographs.  To finish off I hastily put the tools away, dropped the distributor and clamp back in their respective locations and shut the car up for the day.

 

 

It's not a lot of progress because I only had about 90 minutes spare, I was being methodical and the weather was being a big old crybaby at me.  Next time I'll try and get the distributor drive cog, distributor, valve clearances, points clearance, distributor cap, spark plug and spark leads all back on.  I might even have enough time to fight the rocker cover back on and find the nut that ran away.

[Skizzer]

Old cars are such fun sometimes, aren't they?

 

Getting there.

[320touring]

Good progress Vulg! Sometimes a step away, day off and approaching with a fresh head is just the ticket

[PhilA]

Edit, jist reread what you put.

 

Looks correct

 

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

Clementine's Garage users and serial R4 botherers are of the opinion I'm 180 degrees out at present and need to give the flywheel a revolution to bring the timing mark around again.  That's probably the real root of the problem.

[dieselassist]

Just reading/catching up with this thread; you've got great perseverance, and patience with this old Renault project- Respect!! 

 

I don't know how you feel about Grille badges, but I have a pristine 'GB' with union Jack, one you can have.... I got on a used grille I had shipped in from UK - naturally enough its not of any use to me; needs 'repatriating' etc ... I reckon itd go well with the overall 'look' of your 6'....

[Captain Furious]

If you're on the compression stroke (as you should be) then both valves on #1 will be closed, if you're 180 degrees out on the exhaust stroke then the exhaust valve will be open.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Oooohhhh that GB badge is nice, get it lashed on Dr_Vulgarstone

[Jifflemon]

Couple of things...

 

1) Pull all the plugs out - makes turning the engine over a LOT easier!

2) As Catain Furious asked, when you had the engine at TDC, we're both the valves shut?

3) I *think* you can use a longish bolt to thread in the dizzy drive to make it's placement a bit easier.

4) Find the longest 11mm ring spanner you've got, heat it up and put a 90degree bend in it, makes dizzy tightening a lot easier!.

5) Get some white paint on that timing mark!

[plasticvandan]

Jeez if this was mine the quest to get to the bottom of it would mean i would be outside in the rain with a torch in my mouth,col fingers,freezing half mug of tea,until I had got it running! You will get there soon

[vulgalour]

@dieselassist:  I'd be more tempted to put it on the Princess.  Whatever it ends up on, it can be the badge of perserverance/bloody-mindedness.

 

@plasticvandan:  Time was I would be too.  Lately, for whatever reason I seem to lose my temper pretty quickly so when I get to that point with any job I walk away from it rather than fucking it up even worse.

 

We'll get there.  Also, Nomad over on Retrorides made the brilliant comment that if the timing is just 180 out, I don't need to remove the distributor drive cog, it'll be in the right place once everything is rotated to the correct position which I had not thought of at all.  We'll get there, right?  We'll get there.

[dieselassist]

@dieselassist:  I'd be more tempted to put it on the Princess.  Whatever it ends up on, it can be the badge of perserverance/bloody-mindedness.

 

 

Whichever of your motors it finds itself on; Im sure it'd be 'worn well', Pm me your address, n I'll post it on; whatever the postage cost is (irrationally expensive postage is here, to overseas), you can maybe donate to dave47 /the site, is that sounds reasonable???....

 

I'll have to get off the grille first; it was wound on there very tight on one 'peg' n wasn't for moving (maybe someone very bloody-minded fitted it) last time I tried (didnt want to break the grille); might be the weekend/early next week before I get it off n posted to you....

[Noel Tidybeard]

its an *ideal* grille badge for princesssss

[michael1703]

 Also, Nomad over on Retrorides made the brilliant comment that if the timing is just 180 out, I don't need to remove the distributor drive cog, it'll be in the right place once everything is rotated to the correct position which I had not thought of at all.  We'll get there, right?  We'll get there.

I said that days ago

[vulgalour]

This might sound odd, but I'm only now feeling like I actually understand the advice given.  I find it much easier if someone is next to me pointing at things and saying what goes where and why so some of the things I'm reporting and doing now are going to have already been said by people like yourself a while ago and I probably look like I'm not listening.

 

It's not that I'm not listening, it's that I'm having trouble understanding, and that's a fault of the very particular way my brain works when it comes to engines and maths.  Abstract concepts I'm fine with, logical technical stuff like this tends to be utterly baffling to me and takes ages to actually sink in.  I'm going to be tinkering shortly so we'll see how I get on today.

[wuvvum]

You seem to be doing an OK job to me.

[Noel Tidybeard]

you need to rotate the giggling pin for the transmogrifyer

 

i hope it makes sense now

[panhard65]

This should be so easy to get going it is frustrating to read about it. First thing is work out what way the engine rotates. If you get someone to flick the starter whilst you watch which way the pulleys and the rotor arm rotate. That way you will know which way to turn the crank to find TDC. When you have the flywheel mark lined up just rock the engine back and forth a few degrees watching what the valves are doing on numbers 1 and 4. One of these 2 cylinders will have the valves rocking (one closing as the other opens). Once you have established that you will know which cylinder is supposed to be firing (the opposite to the one that is rocking) Lets say cylinder 4 has the valves rocking that will mean that cylinder 1 should be firing. Ok so now we know which one should be firing and when. Next check you are back on TDC after the rocking about. This should only be a small amount. Now look to see where the rotor arm is pointing. Make a mark on the distributor that lines up with the middle of the rotor. A bit of tippex will do but you must be able to see it with the cap on. Now put the cap on and if it isn't far out there should be 1 plug lead that lines up with where the rotor was pointing. That lead must go to number one then fit the rest of the leads in the correct firing order remembering which way the rotor arm rotated. Hopefully that would get it going, it is easy to do once you know what way they rotate. I expect to hear it running later.

[vulgalour]

Update time!  Ready for some frustration?  I bet you are.

 

First job is to rotate the flywheel a full revolution to sort the timing out.  It's just about impossible to photograph the valves, but this was the before shot (I think).

 

Check the distributor drive cog and find it's back to the same place it was.  So that needs to come out and be turned around so the fat side is on the side it should be.

 

Made sure my timing mark was where it should be, like so.

 

Now, the valves are in a different position to previously, but again quite difficult to photograph.

 

Turned the distributor drive cog around so it's aligned properly.  This was actually much easier than my first attempt so I guess I'm getting the knack of that.

 

I was asked which distributor is fitted, so here's the details for that.

 

 

Put the distributor back in and the rotor arm now points in exactly the opposite direction to what it did before giving the flywheel one full revolution.  That's to be as expected, from what I understand people telling me.

 

I also put enough pipework in and an improvised bung for the vacuum/fuel thing under the carburettor.  This now appears to be working properly as the sellotape cap was deformed inward on the pipe so must be creating at least some vacuum.

 

Distributor cap and leads refitted in the correct order, connected up to the coil, a little petrol down the carb, jump leads to the Rover because I'd forgotten to fully charge the Renault's battery and we tried again.

 

This is where the frustration is because I'm sure you'll want to hear I got it running allbeit badly and much rejoicing was had.  What happened instead were a few weak pops in the exhaust rather than backfiring out the carburettor but not enough to get the car to actually run.  A little more accelerant was applied to the carb and again we almost got it to fire but there is another problem somewhere.  It does appear the timing is as it should be now, so that's something.  Even with a remote fuel source we're getting fuel up to the carb but it's not getting through it, I'm guessing there's a blockage in there somewhere.  There was some black gunge around some of these holes that were previously clean.

 

I plonked the air box back on because I was fed up of moving it every time I got in the car and decided to do this update to help me troubleshoot the potential problem rather than poking blindly at something I don't understand the cause of.

 

My suspicion is that there's still a blockage in the carburettor somewhere and the spark may be too weak to make use of what fuel is getting through or put directly into the carb.  I will agree that it must now be something very simple to find, it's just going to take me a while to figure it out because of my lack of experience with this sort of fault.  Please be patient with me.

 

On a happier note, the new dash clock arrived.

 

Panhard:  I'm not ignoring your comments, all of the above was done before I checked in here so I didn't have the info while I was working and photographing stuff.

[panhard65]

All looks pretty good there to be honest you could try swapping the leads 1 and 4 and 3 and 2 just incase you had no 4 firing instead of no 1, but if you set it up with the valves rocking on number 4 the bulkhead end then that looks like it should be near enough to run. Have you tried turning the distributor whilst trying to start sometimes they need a bit of messing. Try easy start again but you need one person to spray whilst the other cranks it over a little squirt should get a response. I take it you are getting a spark as the bloody rolls I got running yesterday messed me about with losing it's spark. A quick clean of the points and it was back. Good luck

[vulgalour]

We did try Easy Start with me at the key and Mike at the carb and got a nice regular poppetypoppop down the exhaust tube when cranking, just not quite enough to get it to fire.  It's *that* close!  I'm wondering if just putting an air line to the fuel in on the carb and giving it a good blast might be enough to dislodge whatever is possibly blocking it?