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The old 'Classic' chestnut.


Pete-M

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As a few of you will possibly know I've been wandering around the interwebs many forums, usenet and the like, for a good few years now. as you lot appear to be of the same mindset I figured this might amuse you lot and possibly get a bit of mindless discussion going, so this post is to get your views.A few months ago I stumbled semi-wittingly into the practical classics forum. I'd been reading their glorious magazine on a train that afternoon, spotted some truly abysmal crap in amongst all the odd gem and figured it was worth popping in to see if there was anything worth chatting about, or if it was all social misfits trying to convince the world that the FSO Polonez is a much more worthy motor than an actual car would be.Within minutes I'd caused a bit of a stir by jokily voicing my opinion that anyone who restores a Marina 1.3 should be fired into space (or something along those lines). This upset the BL apologists somewhat and caused a rampaging torrent of "If you don't like our classics, you're an elitist snob" type posts. Being a chap of the thick skinned variety, I continued to point out that BL did indeed make some of the finest shite of the '70s, but that in my view none of it is actually worthy of the term 'classic'. This just enraged the lovers of shite somewhat, and it's continued to this day with the less intelligent members of the forum throwing insults in my direction willy-nilly. Amusing reading. They found it particularly insulting when I said I'd have no problem allowing a shite old 120Y onto a classic car showground, but I'd make sure it was parked out of the way. (My thoughts being 'next to the bogs, it'll make people smile and it won't upset the people who actually like classics too much)Now, I love shite old cars as much as the next man (that's not saying I love the next man, he's not my type), but I know the difference between a bona-fide classic and a shite old Datsun Violet, and I'm sure most of the readers of this esteemed extravanganza of automotive shiteness will have their own rules and definitions when it comes to what is a shite old car and what's a classic car.My definition of a classic is "The best of its type that was about when it was new, or near enough." (People argue about what's the best all the time, so as long as it's a genuine contender, it'll do me).Anything old that has managed to survive this long without exploding or biodegrading I'd tag as "Shite Old Car", "tat" or similar.Anything restored to perfection that was shite when new I'd refer to as "Shite old car", "tat" or "property of someone very misguided".So, autoshiters, what are your criteria for a shite old / classic?Oh, and has anyone spotted a Tagora V6 yet?

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Definition of "classic" in my book - they don't make 'em like that any more...and it's a shame.Definition of "shite" in my book - they don't make 'em like that any more...for the right reasons.That said, like any Brit I do like to champion the underdog, which is why I get excited to see old tat preserved. Sure, someone who has spent a lot of money restoring a '75 120Y (or whatever) is plainly mad, but in a lot of ways I'm glad they have. If they'd all been crushed and all we had milling about at car shows from that era was, say, '75 Fiat 128s or Citroen GSs (if you read CAR magazine from the period, that's what they reckoned was "best in class"), then the world would be a duller place.Deriving enjoyment from owning, driving and even seeing old cars isn't rational. Fr'example, I'd be quite happy to own a 1.7 Leyland Princess - or a 1.3 Ital - 'cos my dad had 'em when they were new. Wouldn't drive 'em far, mind - I'm not mad/rabid enough to suggest that either is a credible suggestion as a daily driver if you are doing 20-30k miles a year. But that is merely my view, and if someone out there does do that kind of mileage in one, I take my hat off to them.I would also counsel that there are great examples (to own, if not to drive, if you see what I mean) of piss-poor cars, and truly terrible examples of supposedly great cars out there, which muddies the waters somewhat.

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Its very much down to each persons perception really. I sat reading an old (1993) copy of PC recently and it was just absolute nonsence, decrying the day when we see Golfs and Fiestas at classic car shows.For me, if it's old and interesting then for my money its welcome at a classic car show. I've never gone in for the idea that only cars built before whenever were classics and everything else is modern toss. Each car enthusiast has their own 'era' if you will, to me a good 1980s car is interesting enough to merit inclusion in a classic event but someone thirty years older would doubtless diasagree. But then personally I have no interest at all in pre war cars.True classics would I suppose be stuff like a Ferrari 250 GTO SWB but thats not to say everything else (even Marinas) don't warrant a place in car shows.In thirty years time I suppose we might be seeing Kia Cerratos at shows but if people like to see them then all well and good.If people want to spend fortunes restoring old Datsuns then they are welcome, if it makes them happy then why not? I'd love to see a fully restored, concours Dacia Denem which wouldn't be sensible economically but it would still be nice to see.

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It's the fault of this site that I now tend to look at E-types and the like with some disdain. Much less interesting than some late 70s/early 80s French or Japanese tin simply because of what our motoring society has deemed is or isn't in favour. I mean there's like 2 million fuggin MGBs on the roads none of which interest me in the slightest.

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Oh no, are we dragging this one up again??? :P I agree in principle with most of your comments. Classic is a much mis-used description and to my mind should be used to describe only a certain few vehicles.I've always thought it should be reserved for stuff like the Mini and Beetle but these seem to be more deserving of the term "iconic".Classic might be the Citroen DS perhaps or Alfasud, maybe the E-type, Porsche 911, Dolomite Sprint; something which defined a particular type of car. Classic does not mean selling in large numbers however. Are all exotic sports cars classics then? No, only if they are notable for some reason mechanically or stylistically I reckon or are a symbol of an era.Not that I'm a fan but you'd have to say the MGB is a classic design; it's the archetypal old sports car. Sunbeam Alpine then? Possibly, it's very stylish but less well known to the layman.The kind of cars I run (which include a Datsun Violet by the way!) are most certainly NOT classics. These are old cars which were once common and have become interesting through their rarity or newly found popularity. My Triumph 1300 is a damn good car and and interesting car technically but it's still not got that extra magic needed to elevate it to classics status.I welcome seeing any old car at shows regardless of what it is because there will be something about it that interests me, but I would never describe any mass produced family tin as classic from any era, 30s and 50s included as a classic unless it has some meritable features that can be said to have had an effect on motoring more than being just another variation on the same theme. For some reason the French seem have been good at bringing these to us over the years.That brings us to modern classics. I suppose the Audi quattro has to be a candidate, you could argue the Sierra has a place, possibly even the Impreza.At th end of the day, if you like it, preserve it - that's what I do. :D

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I've yet to see a satisfying definition of what a "classic" car is, but it's obviously more than simply being old! Some cars are classic from the day they come off the production line, and some will never be classic, however old they get. I like the idea mentioned above that it's along the lines of being the best car in it's class at the time, but it still doesn't seem to completely cover it. I do hate the snobbery that tends to raise it's head in some circles, but the inverse snobbery is almost as bad. Ok, I can accept that some people don't like MGBs, but lots do, and fair play to them. I admit, a mint chrome bumper model looks pretty good to me! Ditto E types- absolutely stunning cars, and one of those that was a classic from day 1! And it's just a fact of life that anything highly desirable and rare is going to fetch silly money, weather it's actually "worth it" or not- Mk 1 Cortinas and Escorts being the obvious examples. I'm in danger of getting seriously boring here, so will shut up now!! :oops:

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For me a classic is any old or oldish car that I find interesting because it is well engineered or designed (Step forward the Alfa GTV (Bertone please :) )) and shite is any old or oldish car that I find interesting even though it may not be particuarly well engineered or designed (hope I don't offend the Datsun 120Y fans :wink: )

If anyone has different standards (no pun intended :) ) then I'm not worried, the old car world is big enough for us to all have our own preferences but at the same time understand other folks tastes, even if different, are no better or worse than our own.

The only people who get up my nose are those who lay down an arbitary set of rules and look down on anyone who doesn't share their view eg the prats who believe that any MGB with alloys should be crushed with its owner inside because it was not exactly as it left the factory.

OMG, I've suddenly turned into a grumpy old man :shock:

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I recently acquired a 1989 Sierra Sapphire 1.8L in white. This is most certainly shite, but my better half insists I try to restore it, and get involved with the classic car shows locally, as she actually likes the car!How I am received is going to be another matter. When was the last time you saw a G plate Sapphire as a daily driver?

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Frankly I'm interested in anything that turns my head - if it's survived a while, if it's an interesting modern or if it's a bona fide loved-by-bearded-types classic, I really couldn't care less. I tend to preder what's big, thirsty, impractical, unusual, and not Jap or cliched - but anyone who can keep smething old going, espeically as a daily driver, gets my respect. There's also the rarity thing - my Volga's one of maximum ten left on the road with original engines in Romania, the Saab's one of around 30 in the UK: E-types are on every strreet corner by comparison.

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The PC forum is a funny place.... my mag collection starts about '82 - the issue with the feature about the 7 series prior to the E23.... how new? MK2 Jag resto last time round (red one) was when the cars were only just 20 years old - equivilant to an XJ40 resto now....

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i stopped buying NZ Classic Car mag on the basis they featured to many new cars and new car ads..id rather buy PC cos at least they give u the technical stuff..and plus after buying mags since the 80s i know as much as i can absorb..so mostly its just the same old shite u read about 10 years ago..i went to our annual classic car show here in Whanganui this year but i actually found it boring..seen most of the shite before..see a lot on the street anyway..and the fun side of this site is that we can hate /appreciate Lada /FSOs ,Marinas..which i like in a kinda masochistic way..two years ago everybody laffed at my Viva...now everyones interested..

my main interest has always been finding the stuff in sheds or fields..and photographing them..i like them static and crusty and although show cars are fine..not my thing..give me patina and a ripped seat any day..

 

ps..my Auntie Geunda in 79 was the top woman UK saloon race car driver and i went on holiday with her Fiesta team..[i was 12]..i went to get Stirling Moss' n Barry Sheenes autograph [they were in the Audi team] n the former was just an arrogant grumpy ol C*** while good ol Barry was quite sweet..

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i stopped buying NZ Classic Car mag on the basis they featured to many new cars and new car ads..id rather buy PC cos at least they give u the technical stuff..and plus after buying mags since the 80s i know as much as i can absorb..so mostly its just the same old shite u read about 10 years ago..i went to our annual classic car show here in Whanganui this year but i actually found it boring..seen most of the shite before..see a lot on the street anyway..and the fun side of this site is that we can hate /appreciate Lada /FSOs ,Marinas..which i like in a kinda masochistic way..two years ago everybody laffed at my Viva...now everyones interested..

my main interest has always been finding the stuff in sheds or fields..and photographing them..i like them static and crusty and although show cars are fine..not my thing..give me patina and a ripped seat any day..

 

I like some things to be 'show' but I love old shitters as much as the next guy. Last summer I spent fiddling about with a '56 Rover 105 and I loved it because it was such a scruffy old thing but it had character and was great to drive. I quite miss it - when it worked.

 

I buy Practical Classics when I'm getting on the train most months, partly to while away the journey laughing at some of the cars that people seriously think are good and partly because they do tend to squeeze in a few features about half decent older cars.

 

Autoshite seems to be more my style though. I'll have to get some quality pics of some of the shite I see in Czech when I'm there.

 

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right on pete..your collection sounds cool..esp. the Barkus..i was in Berlin 92-97 and they were 10 a plenty..nobody wanted them..and i was an early bird over the Czech border in 91..we were buying antiques ..and the guys we hung out with in Budovice[u know where the beer comes from!] had 2 original Tatras and a WW2 Kubelwagen complete with massive machine gun and apparently the best Tatra 603 [?] to go for was silver with green glass!

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early border escapee..Tatra in Munich 1990

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I find the PC forum to be a place best avoided, there are far too many on there who consider the only classic cars to be those that were built in England, are completely as they left the factory and were built before 1972 and that absolutely everything else is rubbish that has no place in the motoring world as it is as interesting as a washing machine.

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I haven't been on PC for a couple of years now. From what I can remember it was in a format that was very slow and difficult to navigate, and it didn't work well on Firefox. I joined Johnno's breakaway forum but it descended into farce when he left a member in charge for a while and that member appeared to take the whole thing over and lock Johnno out. Some extreme weirdness ensued. I joined Johnno's breakaway breakaway forum but it was too hardcore for me, they were talking about cars and even makes that I'd never heard of.I've always preferred the shite end of the classic scene anyway.

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I can't remember exactly when Pratical Classis fisrt came out but I used to get a free copy because my mother worked for the distributers. PC in their early days slagged off modern(ish) cars which at the time were Cortinas, Marinas, Euroboxes GTIs etc. The whole Classis subject is an odd one when your involved in Banger Racing, I've always raced what is cheaply avaliable at the time. When I started in 1978 this was A60s and they were plentiful and not considered to be a Classic at the time when these became less avaliable I moved on to newer models. Somewhere along the way these became Classics and I am sure the Carinas et al that I use now will be considered a terrible waste when they achieve Classic Status in about 5-8 years time.I used to own a W123 Merc as they were morping into Classics that was were the Coupe was classic but the saloons weren't yet, Weird!

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Banger racing is cool!..i went to the local track here last summer and the only 'classic' was a Triumph 2000 which are still plentiful here so no great loss..and Kiwis aint stupid...theyre not gonna trash something good..and the boats and caravan trailer race woz facken hilarious..

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Location and abundance can also be factors, I would say now that there aren't too many Trummys about so would probably be considered a waste here, by many. I've race a few but this again was when they were plentiful and cheap.

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PC is a great mag, I think its just how a classic car mag should be, its got a sense of humour which is the most important thing with old cars i think. Theers a good mix of 'staples' (MGs) and interesting stuff and they do a good job of treading the fine line between keeping the beardies happy and entertaining folk with more eclectic tastes. The PC forum is pretty grim as it seems to be populated by utter halfwits although, I quite like winding up that Johnno lad. Last week he started PMing me telling me of all his health problems! Apparently he's at deaths door.This business of 'X is a classic and Y is not' is a big waste of time, you'll never get to the bottom of it and just wind up loads of beardies in the process.

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I was away over the weekend and only caught up on the new arguments on Monday. I should have guessed it was you Mr B!Pete, for what its worth I disagree with elements of your point of view, as do several people who have posted in this thread it would seem. But I reckon there are some delicate souls on the PC forum and while here everyone just sits back and takes it easy, it is very easy to provoke silly arguments over there.

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Regardless of whether a car is classic or not, any vehicle can be interesting if any of the following apply:i) It's rare to see one now, or even when they were new.ii) It has a unique history, is a unique vehicle or simply has an interesting specification.iii) The survival rate of the particular vehicle is very low.iv) The vehicle is one of the best surviving examples.v) The vehicle isn't one of the best surving examples which makes it stand out from a 'normal' vehicle.vi) It's very old.They are quite broad categories but they certainly don't apply to every vehicle - although I've got a 12 month old Ford that would fit in i-iv!!I would however class anything pre '75 in good condition as a Classic. In very good condition but built after '75 a Modern Classic. Anything else might be a noteworthy vehicle, that can be described as rare, bilge, tat or sh*te depending on age or condition / location.

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I think a little bit of psychology comes into as well, some people need to know where they fit in to the pecking order. If they are driving an old banger this is low status and bad for the ego, if they drive a classic it is more like a choice they have made. Practical Classic has certainly made it more widely acceptable to run an older car but a lot of readers have always had a bee in their bonnet about being look down on by Elitist car enthusiasts. If you like what your into you shouldn't really care what others think as long as they don't misrepresent you.

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I think a little bit of psychology comes into as well, some people need to know where they fit in to the pecking order. If they are driving an old banger this is low status and bad for the ego, if they drive a classic it is more like a choice they have made. Practical Classic has certainly made it more widely acceptable to run an older car but a lot of readers have always had a bee in their bonnet about being look down on by Elitist car enthusiasts. If you like what your into you shouldn't really care what others think as long as they don't misrepresent you.

Bingo. I was trying to find a way of saying that to them, but it just wouldn't come. Thing is, I can't be arsed now.
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