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XJ40 - Rust! Welding! A cat with management skills!


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#151 ONLINE   Tickman

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 05:31 AM

I can't work out how to attach them to the forum though - how do you do that?

Press more reply options and then you have an attach files option.


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#152 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 11:22 PM

I have just posted this in the News 24 thread, then realised it should really be here. But, today hasn't been a good day for the old beast.

 

I haven't driven the Jag for a while so it's got a bit dusty and being a little bored, I decided to wash it. Backed Jag out of garage on to drive without starting it - just let it roll out on the hill. Noticed small pool of ATF on garage floor.

 

Hummm. Not done that before. Checked fluid level - it is REALLY high, a good 2 centimetres above the plastic bit. It wasn't like that last time I checked it and I haven't put any more in. Hmmmm.

 

P1130242.JPG

 

Started engine. Engine caught with a wobble felt through the whole car and ran slowly and rough. The transmission made a frothing sound; no forward progress.  Bollocks. I shut the engine down sharpish. Of course, the damn thing has chosen to fail to proceed in the part of the drive most difficult to move it from. But at least it had the good sense to die at home...

 

What d'you reckon is wrong with it? - Torque converter failure? Has the extra fluid drained out of  the torque converter? There are a billion and one ways to bugger one of these. Dare I limp it back up the hill into the garage - or is that a good way of really buggering it?

 

So far my diagnostic skills extend to pronouncing it "fucked". Not just any old fucked, but frothing-like-Farage-spewing-over-the-driveway-fuckedy-fucked.

 

Ever wanted to know what a big bill looming looks like? Well here's a photo I took earlier!

 

P1130239.JPG


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#153 OFFLINE   Heidel_Kakao

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 11:37 PM

This is why owning autos gives me the fear :( I know where I am with a manual and a clutch and they are highly unlikely to shit themselves sitting still.

The fluid isn't black at least but that is about as far as my auto diagnosing skills extend I am afraid.
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#154 OFFLINE   Pete-M

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:40 AM

Is the transmission oil cooler mounted in the engine coolant radiator? It's not unheard of for radiators using that setup to fail and this to be the resulting mess.
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#155 OFFLINE   dollywobbler

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:31 AM

Is the transmission oil cooler mounted in the engine coolant radiator? It's not unheard of for radiators using that setup to fail and this to be the resulting mess.

 

That was my thought, as posted in the news thread. If the level has gone up, then there must be more fluid getting in I would have thought. 


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#156 OFFLINE   danthecapriman

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:16 AM

Same thought here. I had it happen to a Volvo 740 once, the radiator leaked internally letting atf and coolant to mix. This made the level in the autobox rise which was how I knew something was amiss.

If this is what's happened do not run it until you've fixed it and drained/flushed the auto box as they really don't like water inside them!

If it is this at least it's an easy fix, though I've no idea how much a new Jag rad costs!
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#157 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:09 AM

Is the transmission oil cooler mounted in the engine coolant radiator? It's not unheard of for radiators using that setup to fail and this to be the resulting mess.

 

 

That was my thought, as posted in the news thread. If the level has gone up, then there must be more fluid getting in I would have thought. 

 

As said in the news24 thread, I third this. It makes sense to me with what's been described.

 

Sounds the perfect time to drop the gearbox sump & clean the filters too, might as well why it's empty.


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#158 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:22 AM

Thanks for the replies and thoughts. The transmission oil cooler is in the radiator on this model (some have a separate cooler but not mine).

 

I have checked the coolant level - I should have mentioned that!

 

The coolant level is correct - it hasn't dropped at all. For the transmission dipstick level to have gone up that volume, I should think there is at least another litre of fluid sitting in the sump - maybe more. If the coolant had lost that quantity, I imagine there would be nothing in the header tank.

 

 

I am pretty sure that it is all ATF. Would a failed transmission pump cause these symptoms?

 

Is it possible that the Torque converter has emptied and the frothing sound I could hear was it refilling? - But why would it do that? - It hasn't before, no matter how long the car has been parked up.


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#159 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:26 AM

I don't think the torque converter should empty when parked up, after all you normally have to change the fluid several times to get the old stuff out of it. I've no idea how they seal/pump/to/from/etc to them though.


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#160 OFFLINE   danthecapriman

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:27 AM

Thanks for the replies and thoughts.
 
I have checked the coolant level - I should have mentioned that!
 
The coolant level is correct - it hasn't dropped at all. For the transmission dipstick level to have gone up that volume, I should think there is at least another litre of fluid sitting in the sump - maybe more. If the coolant had lost that quantity, I imagine there would be nothing in the header tank.
 
I am pretty sure that it is all ATF. Would a failed transmission pump cause these symptoms?
 
Is it possible that the Torque converter has emptied and the frothing sound I could hear was it refilling? - But why would it do that? - It hasn't before, no matter how long the car has been parked up.


I'd imagine if you heard it frothing around the pump must be doing something.
Maybe it is just the oil draining itself down over a long period of inactivity? Although, on my Mercury it doesn't seem to do that. I can leave that sitting unused for months and it still won't do what yours has.

Maybe it's worth firing it up and letting it run long enough to circulate its oil for a bit, see what happens?
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#161 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:44 AM

Good point about the pump! If I can hear the fluid frothing, it must be doing something!

 

I still think (in the admitted absence of any actual knowledge or understanding of  auto transmission voodoo), that ATF which is normally held in the torque converter has drained into the sump for some reason. Why it would do this is a mystery. It shouldn't, no matter how long the car is parked up. I didn't use it for a couple of years when I was having the bodywork done and it drove off normally!


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#162 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:02 AM

Could just be the input of the box spinning in the fluid making the frothing sound. The normal level would be below that to reduce drag etc.


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#163 OFFLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:26 AM

If it doesn't move, then the pump has fired the TC fluid into the box and there's no pressure to the clutches. 

 

Good old 4HP22! 


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#164 OFFLINE   danthecapriman

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:27 AM

I'd be tempted to fire it up and sit there with it held in D and see what it does.
There is a chance you might damage it more than it might already be of course but then again it might just pick up and be a freak anomaly. If it will select and operate in gears then there can't be that much wrong.
The oil looks very clean too which is a good sign.

Is there a chance you've lost more oil than you think? The level might actually be low!
I'm sure you know this but, checking the oil level on an auto needs doing warm after all gears are cycled through. If I go check the Mercury now for example after it's been sat a week the level will look high on the dip stick. Fire it up, get it warm and cycle through all gears then back to P then check the dip stick and the level drops to normal as all the oil galleries etc are now full as they should be.
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#165 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:07 PM

If it doesn't move, then the pump has fired the TC fluid into the box and there's no pressure to the clutches. 

 

Good old 4HP22! 

 

 

That does sound to be a very plausible explanation!

 

Is this a known problem with the 4HP22? And more importantly, what's the solution! (Please tell me its cheap and easy!!) :mrgreen:

 

If this is what's wrong with it, would trying to move the car risk damaging the transmission further, or will it probably just not move/stall the car without more damage?


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#166 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:13 PM

I'd be tempted to fire it up and sit there with it held in D and see what it does.
There is a chance you might damage it more than it might already be of course but then again it might just pick up and be a freak anomaly. If it will select and operate in gears then there can't be that much wrong.
The oil looks very clean too which is a good sign.

Is there a chance you've lost more oil than you think? The level might actually be low!
I'm sure you know this but, checking the oil level on an auto needs doing warm after all gears are cycled through. If I go check the Mercury now for example after it's been sat a week the level will look high on the dip stick. Fire it up, get it warm and cycle through all gears then back to P then check the dip stick and the level drops to normal as all the oil galleries etc are now full as they should be.

 

 

Yes you're right, it could be low - I haven't measured it since March when it was correct - but there is definitely far more than usual sitting in the sump. I know it isn't actually measuring the level of fluid in the 'box, but the level of fluid sitting in the pan when the car hasn't been run should be much lower on the dipstick than this (it always has been in the past, anyway).

 

I think the Reverend Bluejeans could be on to something here with his pumping into the 'box theory.


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#167 OFFLINE   Pete-M

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 03:18 PM

As someone who's killed more than one 4HP22 in the past the first sign normally of the box being dead is a high pitched squeal from it. That's the pump trying to get water to act like oil.
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#168 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 04:39 PM

There is no high pitched squeal - the only high pitched squealing was from me! There was just a liquid churning noise, along with the engine running rough and feeling laboured.


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#169 OFFLINE   The Reverend Bluejeans

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 04:59 PM

A good used autobox will be a couple of hundred quid, if that. Four hours ramp time to fit.

 

PITA though.


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#170 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 05:23 PM

A good used autobox will be a couple of hundred quid, if that. Four hours ramp time to fit.

 

PITA though.

 

 

Does the transmission problem sound terminal?


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#171 OFFLINE   Nyphur

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 05:29 PM

Just getting caught up on this thread. The car is a fantastic looker, hopefully the transmission issue isn't too much of a hassle.


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LAST OWNER WAS SON OF A BANKER

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it is broke just ignore it, and maybe it'll be sort of OK...?


#172 OFFLINE   Pete-M

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 05:43 PM

A good used autobox will be a couple of hundred quid, if that. Four hours ramp time to fit.

PITA though.


Last one I bought cost me £5 ;)
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#173 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:54 PM

Last one I bought cost me £5 ;)

 

 

Something tells me I won't do quite such a good negotiation as that!


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#174 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:00 PM

I posted the tale on the Jaguar Enthusiast's club forum - here are their responses for interest:

 

https://jec.org.uk/f...&p=64718#p64718

 

I must have posted it quite a bit after this forum, since I quote the Rev. Bluejeans in it! Though looking at it now, it's slightly misquoted him...


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#175 OFFLINE   Honey Badger

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:10 PM

I'd drop a sump full of the atf to see if there is any contamination before I started it up again, if it's clean you can always pour it back in. 

 

Coolant should sit at the bottom of the sump so you will soon know if there has been an issue with the ATF cooler.


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#176 OFFLINE   Hooli

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 06:38 PM

Nobody on XJ40.com knows? I would be surprised if that was the case.



#177 OFFLINE   Magnificent Rustbucket

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 04:40 PM

I wanted to make absolutely sure (or as certain as I could be without removing the sump) that there was no coolant crossing over into the transmission from the radiator, so I removed 2 litres of ATF this afternoon with a Pela 6000 suction pump. Dropping the sump would have been a lot better, but I have some historic spinal problems which can be upset by going under the car and don't have any axle stands to hand, so sucking out a bit had to do!

 

I reasoned that if coolant was getting in to the transmission then it would most likely mix with the atf resulting in an oleaginous mess, or separate with the atf floating on the coolant. Either way, since the dipstick enters the pan low down, then I would see evidence of coolant if there was any - or perhaps burned fluid. 

 

The atf I removed looked to be in good condition with no burning and no evidence of coolant. So I decided to start the car. And it started ...normally! There was perhaps a little more vibration than usual for a second, but nothing striking and the car settled to a normal and smooth idle with no strange noises from the transmission. Drive and Reverse engaged normally - there was nothing to suggest that there had been a problem of any kind.

 

So it is either a self-fixing Jaguar or a neurotic owner  - you decide!  I will have the transmission checked out though, to determine the cause of the leak (which appears to have stopped) and to discover if the loss of drive was a one-off due to a draining torque converter not having refilled, or whether it is a harbinger of problems to come.

 

Thanks to everyone who has helped me on this - I do appreciate it!

 

Imagine what an utter berk I would have felt if I had called out a tow ruck to take it to a garage, then tried in vain to push all of its 1950 kilos up the drive, given up and then started the car and found there was nothing wrong with it!!

 

 

David.


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#178 OFFLINE   danthecapriman

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 05:03 PM

Glad it's nowt serious, so far anyway!
I'm sure it's nothing. Probably just something that happened from lack of use?
Thinking back, the transmission leak I had on the Mercury only leaked after the car was sat for a while, must have been the fluid draining back into the sump raising the level up high enough to drip out. Using it stopped the leak until it had been sat long enough again. Yours must be something similar.
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#179 OFFLINE   dollywobbler

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 05:38 PM

My XJ40 did that extremely poor running thing. I never did find out what the problem is. I decided it was HERITAGE. Last time it did it, I disconnected the battery, left it a bit, connected it, voila. Perfect.


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