project 1980 Austin Princess

[vulgalour]

Phil-ter.

 

 

 

I may have drunk too much coffee.

[320touring]

Phil-ter.

 

 

 

I may have drunk too much coffee.

Looks like you are spot on with the dosage - life is better with Punz

[vulgalour]

We failed to proceed today.

I started off this morning by removing and cleaning out the carb.  This revealed there was indeed sediment in the float bowl, though I'm not sure how it got in since I always run a filter before the carb, so it lends credence to the theory that the filter had started to collapse and get sucked into the carb.  After a brief driveway test to make sure the car started and idled normally, I decided to take it out for a short test run just to be sure nothing was amiss.

Foolishly, I tempted Fate by forgetting to take my manual with me and inevitably coming off a roundabout the car just died.  I could get it to fire up but not idle, and on opening the bonnet there was petrol just pouring out of every part of the carb it could.  Not great.  With my tools but no manual I wasn't really confident I'd be able to fix a problem if I found one so, since the car was in a good visible location, I stuck the hazards on and walked home.

I informed Mike what had happened before trekking back to the car so that I could attempt a roadside repair.  I'd also left my mobile at home, so I couldn't ask him to bring the manual to me, so we had to do things the old fashioned way.  Mike had a couple of jobs at home to do and once done, he headed over in his car just in case I needed towing home (I carry a tow pole in the boot, just in case). I have AA cover but it seemed a bit daft to use it since I could practically see my house from where I'd broken down.

On dismantling the carb there was nothing obviously amiss.  Nothing was stuck, there was no dirt lodged anywhere that I could see, so everything was cleaned and reassembled at the roadside and a restart attempted.  This time there was no fuel overflowing but without rather more choke than normal, it wouldn't idle either.  After letting things warm up a bit I tried moving the car under its own power and found that any use of the throttle beyond the barest brush would make the car try and stall, so we creeped into a nearby church car park to turn around and creep home, with Mike providing cover by following me home.

On the same roundabout the car died, it suddenly got its act together and ran normally.  It was like someone had flicked a switch.  Normal acceleration returned and the car was behaving as though absolutely nothing was wrong.  I can only surmise that there was some sediment or a component was sticking for some reason which became dislodged once the car had been running for a few minutes.

I'll test everything again tomorrow and see how we get on.  I've always thought there was something wrong with this carburettor and now I'm sure of it.  Fortunately my spare is being rebuilt and should be with me soon which I'm hoping will resolve this bizarre running problem.

[vulgalour]

As mentioned in the News Thread, today, the Princess was incredibly difficult to start.  So much so that a neighbouring workman popped his head around the hedge to ask if it was always so difficult to get going.  I was beginning to doubt the Princess' ability to fire myself until, eventually, it did.  Then the difficulty was keeping an idle, which it really didn't want to do at all. As usual, I went through the usual suspects to try and find a problem and there was nothing apparent.  I was getting fuel, a good spark, the points hadn't closed up, the carb wasn't flooding... it was almost as if there was a massive vacuum leak somewhere which seemed unlikely since on the roadside repair I'd checked for that and there wasn't one.

There's not many places to look for a vacuum leak.  There's the vacuum advance pipe from the manifold to the distributor, and there's the one other location, which is when I spotted the gasket between the carb and the spacer block had a bit of a tuft.  A quick squirt with carb cleaner (it's what I had to hand) highlighted that this was indeed a massive vacuum leak.  A quick squirt was enough to make the revs rise considerably and, as soon as the area had sucked all the carb cleaner in, the revs dropped again.  This same tactic found the damaged carb mounted block on my old Mk2 Polo, a problem that had also eluded me because I thought it was something else at the time.

On removing the carb I found that there was a big chunk of the gasket missing, it looked like it had just been blown out.  I also noticed the inner hole of the gasket was breaking up and the carb had quite obviously been sucking little fibrous bits of it in.  Perhaps I've also found what was blocking the carb internals up and possibly the root cause of the fuel starvation issue.  It would explain how stuff was getting into the carb without going through the fuel filter.  Perhaps I damaged the gasket at the roadside when I did the repair, perhaps it was already damaged and recent fettling was just a bit too much for the gasket.

Flexoid gasket paper to the rescue!  Mike's had this stuff for ages and its really good.  It's probably older than the car too, for that matter.

With the new gasket made I reassembled everything and the car, predictably enough, was much happier.  A short test trundle proved that things seem to be okay, I'll know better when I've gone on a longer run, I just didn't have the time for that today.

[Fumbler]

Needs more Filter with more doses of Phil-ter coffee to help you carry on daily driving it.

[vulgalour]

Today has been rather trying.  After replacing the gaskets the car drove really well when I went out on my errands until I was on my way home.  Poor running began and then the car just died on me, fortunately in a place where I could coast into a car park.  I got the car to fire up again but with a wandering idle and a reluctance to rev.  Creeping around the car park I found that I could use the choke to counteract the wandering idle enough to limp the car fast enough to not be a hazard to other road users so made my way home again.

Within about a mile of home, the problem got worse.  I was struggling to maintain 15-20mph doing a dance of pedals and choke and, since I was slow enough to be a hazard I put the hazard lights on and deployed hand signals.  I hope the learner driver behind me was educated or knew what hand signals were, certainly they were kind enough to give me plenty of space and I was blessed with clear roads to make the journey home safely.

Once home I could investigate more properly and I found that the points are burned badly enough that they need replacing.  That, combined with the way the car was behaving, leads me to believe the condenser has failed, especially so since the problem is worse when the car is up to operating temperature which is when similar symptoms appeared with my previous condenser failure.  I could purchase a new condenser and a new set of points but I decided that instead I should put electronic ignition to the test to see if the recommendations given really would pay dividends.  Personally I still find points and condenser systems perfectly adequate providing you can acquire good quality versions of both, I just haven't had a great deal of luck with condensers over the years.

The other issue that has been becoming apparent lately is that the rear suspension is firmer and bouncier than I'd like.  I suspect they require a re-gas so that's a job for the new year.  I'm hoping the pivot shafts in my spare rear suspension assemblies aren't seized as I'd far rather send those out for rebuilding so I can at least use the car while I wait for them to come back.  I'll do the fronts at a later date as I don't have spares and they're in good order, so I'd rather wait until a time I can comfortably disable the car for a while.

This has certainly not been the best week of the challenge.  Thankfully, I have very little driving to do between now and January so I may well get through the next few weeks without having to stop the challenge.  We shall see.

[PhilA]

Thinks like this had me looking into the use of polypropylene film capacitors (450V 1uF) instead of the nonsense in little metal tins they sell today for car ignition.

 

Phil

[plasticvandan]

Only basing this on my experience of failing condensors,in a myriad of Lucas 25d4 and 45d4 sparked machines,but when they were packing up it would start and run fine until the engine got warm-hot,then misfire,pop and bang and then die completely.using choke to help suggests an air leak,tho the burnt points does suggests electrical.lift the dizzy cap and crank the engine,if you see blue/yellowish sparks at the points,condenser is fucked,tho I'm sure you know this

[Rocket88]

 

If you want to immobilise the poor old thing completely, buy one of these......

[LightBulbFun]

Thinks like this had me looking into the use of polypropylene film capacitors (450V 1uF) instead of the nonsense in little metal tins they sell today for car ignition.

 

Phil

 

I was wondering why Cars dont just use regular high quality high voltage capacitors these days?

 

(ie why do cars still use a capacitor desgined 50 years ago )

[anonymous user]

I can only add that it seems that all new points and condensers are rubbish. Just when you think you have found some reasonable ones they will turn out to be rubbish as well. If you can find new old stock they might be better.

[vulgalour]

PVD:  If there is an air leak as well I'm not sure where it is, I couldn't find one.  The choke was more to control the revs since it was going up and down so it was a case of pulling that in and out to keep it going since it was an easier way to raise and drop the revs than trying to do it with the foot pedal.  It felt more like someone was getting the distributor and turning it left and right at random than an air leak, one of those issues where it would be easier to describe in person than in text.  Your experience of failing condensers does describe pretty much exactly what's happened.  The spark itself is variable in quality and colour, which again would hint at a condenser issue, I think?  It doesn't seem like an earthing issue this time, for once.

[PhilA]

I was wondering why Cars dont just use regular high quality high voltage capacitors these days?

 

(ie why do cars still use a capacitor desgined 50 years ago )

Because money. The paper ones in a little metal can are cheaper to mass produce than polyester film, because polyester film requires some tightly controlled manufacturing procedures. The older style ones can be made with a spatula and some newspaper by the local children of whatever developing country you pick as cheapest to make it this week.

 

Phil

[Asimo]

This is the sort of capacitor I'd use if I had a car without electronic ignition.

 

 

The smaller one is designed for " snubbing" duties, ie absorbing switching spikes in motor control equipment etc, the larger is from a cheap microwave oven. Both rated at 2kV.

A few car "condensers" I measured once were in the region of 300nF but I have not found any hard information on what capacitance is actually required; it will be a function of both the particular coil and the maximum number of sparks per second.

 

Anyway, back to the Princess. The rebuilt carb. will sort it I'm sure, clean fuel and healthy sparks permitting.

[PhilA]

They are technically tuned to the coil but anything from about 0.5 to 1uF will work adequately.

 

Phil

[Zelandeth]

Worth remembering before saying "air leak" is that a lean mixture requires a stronger spark than a rich one...hence how manually richening it up a bit with the choke probably was enough to keep it going.

 

I had issues with the Saab once due to a dodgy rotor arm (incorrect part in the Intermotor catalogue) which lead to the car running perfect when cold, but cutting out *exactly* like there was a fuel starvation issue as it warmed up.  Took me a fluffing age to figure that one out - especially as adjusting the idle mixture did make it try to run better.

 

I only worked it out because I happened to stumble across an old rotor arm in the boot and was at a total loss as to what else to try so stuck that on...and the car proceeded to run perfectly.

 

So yeah, a knackered condenser causing a poor spark and damage to the points could indeed give symptoms similar to a major air leak I'd think.

[Squire_Dawson]

.18 to .23 microfarad apparently.

[PhilA]

That's an easy value to get in high voltage/low ESR film

 

If it makes you feel better you could stuff one inside a tin condenser can

 

 

Phil

[LightBulbFun]

That's an easy value to get in high voltage/low ESR film

 

If it makes you feel better you could stuff one inside a tin condenser can

 

 

Phil

 

thats what im thinking, and surprised it aint the norm in car circles?

 

pretty much what everyone and their dog does these days when it comes to valve/vacuum tube radios/TVs at least...

[vulgalour]

We have reached the end of week 5.

 

This week began with the installation of an Accuspark Stealth electronic ignition kit to replace the condenser that failed the previous week.

 

 

Initially I had set everything by ear and got things close so I could use the car until Mike brought the relevant tools home to set the timing and idle correctly.  The Princess doesn't have a rev gauge, so it's necessary to set it with a tool, like this strobe thing from Snap-on that Mike's had for years.  The boot of the Rover does make a very good tool table, it's just the right height and size.

 

 

Since doing that, the car starts no better or worse than usual.  It does, however, drive much smoother with no hesitation.  In retaliation, the choke cable has decided that it doesn't always want to lock so I have now had to employ the 1980s staple of a wooden clothes peg for certain choke pull positions.

 

The other job that was almost completed was the bottom section of the rear wing that had rotted out.  It's a difficult profile to replicate so I made do with a section of the old front wing I replaced to give me the rough shape I required.  I'm not as happy with the repair as I could be, it's not my tidiest work.  That said, once filler and proper paint is applied, you'll never know.  I ran out of time to do any more work on the inner arch cleaning and repair work so that will have to wait for another day.

 

Coolant - no noticable consumption

Oil - no noticable consumption

[320touring]

Good update:)

[dozeydustman]

This is good news Mr Vulgalour sir. Hopefully the Sparkrite setup will outlive the car, or your ownership of it at least.

[Zelandeth]

Guessing this is data you already have on hand, but seemed worth a quick post of it anyhow in case it contains anything useful.

 

 

 

[Rocket88]

This is good news Mr Vulgalour sir. Hopefully the Sparkrite setup will outlive the car, or your ownership of it at least.

 

 

If Mr Vulg has fitted Sparkrite it'll never move again..............

[dozeydustman]

Never had any problems with electronic ignitions kits replacing points IME. Used both Sparkrite & Lumenition on my Scimitars, Lumenition was the better of the two though.

 

Points are good if you can get good quality ones. Just like most things now replacement parts are made to a price, not a standard.

[vulgalour]

End of week 6.  I'm a little late on this, meant to do it yesterday and got somewhat distracted by a French car.

Coolant - no noticeable loss
Oil - Put about 200ml in to keep it above the minimum on the dipstick

It's been a productive week.  Finally got the front arch liners fitted, which is a less than pleasant job.  They do catch on the tyre sometimes on full lock, but only a little so I'm not terribly concerned, they probably just need massaging into the arch a little more, or an extra fixing putting in.



The sills and rear inner arches got a nice fresh coat of underseal.




The whole car looked a lot smarter for that and it should help keep rust and stone chips at bay.  I tried out a different local fuel station which I probably won't use again because it's incredibly small and cramped.  Made for an okay fuel up snapshot, all the same.




Ticked over another little milestone this week too, having now reached 77k.



My attention then turned to the rear suspension displacers.  All of the spares I've got have seized pivot shafts.  This is a common Princess problem and unfortunately, the only way to get them out is to sacrifice the trailing arms.  I did take the one liberated displacer to a local machine shop, along with a complete trailing arm assembly, and even they couldn't get the pivot shaft out.  Fortunately they did free the stub of pivot shaft from the one displacer that had already been cut out of a trailing arm so I do now at least have one usable spare.



Mike and I then refitted the stonechip guard trims to the sills.  It's held on with polyurethane sealant and button head screws rather than the rubber seal and rivets the car came to me with.  It helps make the car look just that bit more finished and should protect the doors from stone chips.  I doubt there will be a problem using sealant rather than rubber trim.




The Princess continues to behave really rather well and to do everything I need.  Motoring has become somewhat uneventful, happily, so I've been able to focus on less essential jobs and just enjoy using the car for its intended purpose.

[vulgalour]

End of week 7, another 70 miles under the tyres, and absolutely nothing to report.

 

Sorry, that was a bit boring.

[captain_70s]

Sorry, that was a bit boring.

 

0/10, disliked, unsubscribed. Almost as dull as my Acclaim.

[PhilA]

Liked because so far so good. Intended purpose and all that.

 

Phil

[vulgalour]

End of week 8, only about 30 miles done this time, which is a light week even for me.

 

The only thing of note was doing a cold start video because everyone knows how unreliable old cars are when it snows (statement may contain some sarcasm).