project 1980 Austin Princess

[DodgeRover]

Things haven't frozen up slightly have they, seems odd the clutch was ok on the previous drive but not now?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

sounds like a clutch hydraulics problem does it not?

 

DOing the actual clutch is a right war on these, its 90% of actually taking the engine and box out.

[vulgalour]

The clutch has been on the way out since February 2012.  I'm pretty sure it's the actual clutch and not the hydraulics, I'm amazed I've nursed it as long as I have tbh.

[M'coli]

Bollox is right on this one - no clutch=no drive, no clutch hydralics=not able to engage gears. If it's the slave cylinder a quick pressure or gravity* bleed of the system should sort it for a wee while.

 

*Basically, let the fluid run out of the slave bleed screw by gravity only, or use your hand to seal a pipe around the reservoir filler and blow into it for a bit of pressure.

[vulgalour]

We shall bleed it tomorrow and see what happens.  I do still need to do the clutch though, I have been putting that off for much too long.

[SiC]

You and clutch hydros don't seem to ever get along...

[vulgalour]

All I do is show them love after a life of neglect and this is how they repay my kindness.  People are like this too.  That's why I hate people.

[vulgalour]

Right then, let's see if we can sort out this clutch.  Really easy job on the Princess this one.  Open this.

20171012-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Bleed here.

20171012-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Check this is an adequate level.

20171012-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Net result is I can now select gears but the clutch is definitely gubbed.  The biting point is difficult to find and the clutch is now rattling.  I suspect the fluid level dropped because the clutch has just worn out.  I did take the car on a test run on a faster local road and while it isn't uncomfortable by any stretch, it's not as wafty-lopey as it used to be with the new suspension set-up. The ride is better than pretty much any post 1990 car but not as good as a stock Princess.  I'm calling this a good compromise really because the improvement in handling and the lack of comedy nose-diving under heavy braking makes it feel a far safer and more predictable car in modern traffic.  The brakes, also, have improved considerably just with a few miles under the tyres so I'm no longer worried about those.

 

Test drive was  only a  few miles and it highlighted that the cone filter that was fitted out of necessity is not well suited to cold weather driving.  When you're accelerating above 40mph there's an occasional misfire/cough, as though the engine is running too lean.  Once you've got up to speed and have eased off the accelerator it stops doing it and I suspect once the engine is fully warmed up it won't do it at all.  Refitting the original filter house is very easy and I'll be doing that when I've dug out all the bits that are stuck in the back of the garage behind the dismantled shed Mike has nearly finished preparing for construction.

 

The next think to do on the Princess therefore is going to be replacing the clutch, refitting the original air filter and box, and making the small modification to the boot floor to secure the rear suspension hoses properly.  After that's done I can get on with the cosmetic welding work that's left which is mostly door-bottoms, lower rear quarters and the American lights for the rear end.  Oh, and I decided against changing the MGB sidelight/indicator pods on the front because having taken that terrible potatocam video recently it highlight just how right it looks lit up.

 

For now, the Princess will be on extremely light duties until the weather improves and the Rover will continue to be the workhorse.  Getting into the Rover after driving the Princess even a short distance makes the Rover feel really, really tiny and toy-like.

20171012-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

[vulgalour]

It's been a month since the last update and about the same since the car last moved, mainly because of spending a few weeks down south again for the festive period.  Now I'm back and have been able to get in the garage I can crack on with the next round of jobs on the Princess, none of which are serious.  Dug out the clutch kit, old air box, a few bits and bobs and one of the new oil seals I need.  The other oil seal is, I think, in the glovebox of the Princess and I didn't think to check until I got back home without it.

 

Even though it's been sat idle for a month, it started no bother and the suspension was where I'd left it, so that was reassuring.  Tootled over to the unit with Mike in tow so I could get the jobs I needed to do done later in the week.  The Princess really has to be in fine fettle this year because there's a house move happening and the areas I'm looking at moving to are between 120 and 350 miles away, which the Princess will ideally need to make without the assistance of a trailer.  Temperature was below freezing today but the Princess was fine on the amble to the unit and waited patiently outside while space was made inside.  Looked glamourous in a 1970s sort of way with the low winter sun and spray from the car wash... just a shame the photo doesn't capture it so well.

20180108-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

At the moment the Princess is keeping one of the older generation company in the form of a Wolseley Six with a flat battery.  I'm sure they'll get along famously.

20180108-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

More updates once work begins.  Fingers crossed it doesn't end up in the usual chaos other jobs on this car has, hopefully nobody has been in to bodge up these items!

[vulgalour]

Today was the day the clutch work could start on the Princess.  First job, move the Wolseley Six out of the way so the Princess can hog the lift... but first, family photo time!  Grandad fell asleep so the Princess needed to give him a short sharp shock.

20180110-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

The Six has an earth issue in the driver's headlight area and a dead battery, you never really know how long it's going to hold charge as a result.  Mike's going to be taking that corner apart, cleaning it all and fitting a new battery, which should sort it all out.  Once everyone had stopped pulling silly faces, we had another go at that family photo.

20180110-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Good.  Right.  Let's get back inside and crack on with this clutch removal.  The manual is a bit strange on this one, the instructions are scattered over several sections rather than being clumped together *but* I'd had advice from folks that have done this job before  to help me along so the first thing to do was strip off everything connected to and/or obscuring the clutch housing (for want of a better description).

 

Starter motor removal is really easy, just four bolts.  I made sure to label the wires so I knew where they went back.

20180110-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Battery, battery tray/bracket, expansion bottle, coil, and clutch slave cylinder removed.  Earth strap, carb overflow pipe, and wiring loom disconnected.  Bags of access now.  No horns to remove as they're fitted to the other side since I'm not running the factory ones.

20180110-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180110-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

The inside of the clutch slave cylinder is a bit grotty so we'll be making sure that's cleaned up and okay once the clutch has been changed.   Contrary to how rusty it looks in the picture, it's actually more like a combination of old copper grease and regular grease with some black paint flakes mixed in for good measure.

20180110-07 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Next job was to remove the bolts  holding the clutch housing to the sandwich plate.  The engine mounts weren't unbolted at this stage.

20180110-08 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

With that done, the engine was supported with a brace and the engine mount bolts unfastened.  This, I'm told, is the way to do it without removing the entire engine and I should (because it's the 4 cylinder, not the 6 cylinder) be able to wiggle the clutch housing out to change the clutch components.

20180110-09 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Unfortunately, I ran out of time to get much further.  I've got to be pretty strict about my work:play ratio hours this month.  The thing Mike and I couldn't get to  free was the clutch housing itself. It's free enough that it's started to move but it won't yet come off.  It may also not be on its original clutch as there's signs someone previously has been in and nibbled away some of the edges of the join.

20180110-10 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

I'll be going in tomorrow to have another go at freeing off this clutch housing tomorrow with Mike.  Is there a particular knack to it?  Since everything is cast alloy I don't want to smack or lever any of it too brutally for fear of accidentally breaking chunks off.  Once the housing is off it looks like a fairly straightforward clutch swap and rebuild at least so here's hoping it's done by the end of the week.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I think you have to take the end cover off and remove some gubbins from inside before the big clutch housing can be removed

[vulgalour]

We were wondering about that.  The manual is a bit confusing because it says you remove the clutch housing first before you can do that and implies you don't need to strip any of it to get at the clutch.  It can be done, it's only a few bolts.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I did this job years ago and I found it to be a right shitehawk. I am sure you have to take the cover off and remove some colossal nut off the end of the lower idler gear shaft or something. Then the housing comes off over that shaft (meaning you have to slide the casing 8" horizontally before it can be removed) Actually I think my Landcrab clutch change is on the tat blog somewhere, that will show you what you have to do I think.

[vulgalour]

I can get the lateral movement by dropping the engine a bit so that shouldn't be an issue.  Landcrabs are on the B lump but the same basic gearbox design, aren't they?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Yeah gearbox is all the same shizz!

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I used to just pull the engine out as per 1800 Landcrab. The 2200 is easier as it uses the Mini set up with a slim clutch cover but the 1800/1700 has an arse about face set up. Did my last one in 1989. The 2200 has the drop gears between the block and the flywheel as per Mini, the B and O Series have the drop gears outside the flywheel. Weird set up.

[vulgalour]

Part two of the clutch change.  This isn't a difficult job, per se, just a frustrating one.  It would be easier if I could devote a full day to the job really, rather than having to steal occasional hours.  Decided it was sensible to drain the oil.  Again, the manual was a little vague on this front and suggested "a quantity" would come out once the end housing was removed.  Glad I did drain the oil, it's a bit sludgy and will benefit from a change.  Thanks to suggestions from folks on the threads I keep on various fora, going was much easier today because Mike and I actually knew what to attack.  Before long, the drive gear cover was removed fairly easily, revealing the strange remote gear drive thing.

20170111-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Worryingly, the large lower nut looked a bit chewed.  As expected, the monkeys have been in here too.  Everywhere I go on this car some moron has been in with bodge and danger.

20170111-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

With the cover off it was possible to see the monkeys had been chewing on the bearing slot too.  Urgh.  You can just see the nibbling of a chisel or screwdriver next to the bearing above the oil blob.

20170111-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Oh well!  Next was undoing the big chewed up nut which proved problematic because it's enormous, a Whitworth 1 (1" 11/16ths from memory).  Luckily, Mike's dad is a bit of a hoarder and there was an enormous Whitworth 1 ring spanner on the rack which allowed us to undo the nut once it had been cracked off with a comedically oversized  pipe wrench that needed two hands to weild.  Finally we could test the knowledge I'd been given that you can wiggle the housing out without removing the engine from the car.  First remove the gears you need to.  There's also one nut in a deep recess that we nearly missed because it wasn't where expected one to be.

20170111-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Then a bit of a wiggle and HOORAY the housing is free.

20170111-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Unfortunately, I was misled.  You cannot simply wiggle it free and those that told me some time ago that you could were mistaken.  It's close, no doubt about that, but not close enough.

20170111-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

 It should come out without removing the engine and disconnecting absolutely everything though .  If we undo the other two engine mounts and remove the oil filter (I need to put a new filter on anyway, so this isn't a problem) we should be able to drop the engine far enough without having to disconnect everything.

20170111-09 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Having a look underneath highlighted what I presume to be antiroll bar that needed unfastening so the gear selector rods didn't get stuck on it when the engine is dropped.

20170111-07 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Also had to disconnect the middle exhaust brackets which are already cracking even though they were new last April.  This should allow the exhaust enough free movement  so that I don't need to faff about with the manifold clamps.

20170111-08 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

That was as far as I could go as my alarm beeped meaning my time was up for today.  Tomorrow I'm hoping to get in and  undo the two engine mounts and lower the engine a few inches so the chassis leg isn't  stopping the bellhousing coming off.  After that the actual clutch change is probably going to be really easy and it will just take a while to get all the bits put back on where they live again.

[Stanky]

Blimey, what a carry-on! Well done for your perseverance with it!

 

Are you going to look to replace the chewed-up bits or are they just mildly damaged?

[vulgalour]

They're serviceable so I'll just reuse them.  I can't imagine trying to get hold of a Whitworth 1 sized nut is going to be particularly easy.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

....I can't imagine trying to get hold of a Whitworth 1 sized nut is going to be particularly easy.

 

Any good?

[vulgalour]

The internet is amazing!

[Asimo]

That isn't an anti-roll bar (Dr. Moulton would turn in his grave) it is a tie bar that reinforces the lower suspension arm mounts against one another: rather like a strut-brace but in tension rather than compression.

[Parky]

Jeez, what a palaver. What would the trainees at Mr Clutch make of this?

[beko1987]

Jeez, what a palaver. What would the trainees at Mr Clutch make of this?

You see, that's just the sort of shit I'd do if I won the euromillions! (so I could pay for it if they surprisingly did manage to do it)

 

That and buy a ropey xm, or gooner 2 ph2 or similar, rock up to the main dealer and say "do everything"

[coalnotdole]

They're serviceable so I'll just reuse them.  I can't imagine trying to get hold of a Whitworth 1 sized nut is going to be particularly easy.

 

Is the thread definately Whitworth? It could it be a UNF / UNC thread that the whitworth spanner was just coincedentally a good fit?

 

There are a number of spaners sizes that are interchangable between AF and Whitworth. For example 1/4" Whitworth is an equivilent to 1/2" AF.

 

I don't think many mass produced cars from the mid 70's routinely used whitworth threads. As they were mainly replaced by UNF / UNC in the early 1960's. (Naturally British leyland may turn out to be an exception!)

[alf892]

Is the thread definately Whitworth? It could it be a UNF / UNC thread that the whitworth spanner was just coincedentally a good fit?

 

There are a number of spaners sizes that are interchangable between AF and Whitworth. For example 1/4" Whitworth is an equivilent to 1/2" AF.

 

I don't think many mass produced cars from the mid 70's routinely used whitworth threads. As they were mainly replaced by UNF / UNC in the early 1960's. (Naturally British leyland may turn out to be an exception!)

1/4 whit is not a good sub for 1/2 AF...........but your point very true.

 

The one I always remember is the older truck trailer wheel nuts which were 1 and 5/16AF which is 3/4 whit. Also same size as most A series crank pully.

[coalnotdole]

1/4 whit is not a good sub for 1/2 AF...........but your point very true.

 

The one I always remember is the older truck trailer wheel nuts which were 1 and 5/16AF which is 3/4 whit. Also same size as most A series crank pully.

 

Fair enough, my Knowledge on AF / whitworth spanner interchange might not be good as I thought! 

 

I tend to use new nuts and bolts and old but cared for Britool spanners so my experience of what works with what may not be universal.

[vulgalour]

I wouldn't have considered Whitworth either except for the fact the book states it to be that size and the spanner does fit.  The Imperial size is peculiar too.  I understood Whitworth fell out of regular use in the 1950s and with this gearbox having its engineering roots in the 1960s (Landcrab, Maxi, etc.) or possibly extremely late 1950s (release of the Mini) it's probably unlikely to find anything of that type in here.  Having said that, the rest of the engine bay does use a mix of predominately Metric fixings with one or two Imperial bits thrown in so who knows?  Perhaps BL just had a surfeit of Whitworth nuts left over, perhaps they're not Whitworth but something that's an exact match for the head and a different thread?

 

Safest to re-use the original since it's good enough to do so I reckon.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

The O-series engine has metric nuts and bolts but the gearbox is Landcrab technology, so 1960's designed to go under a B-series, and is therefore imperial. Brilliant innit!!!

 

I would use the nut again defo, a bit of chisel damage is nowt to worry about on a nut that size.

[vulgalour]

Clutch Change Part Three.

Mr B put it best when he said "I did this job years ago and I found it to be a right shitehawk."  He was not wrong.  The first time you do a job always takes the longest because you're learning how to do it, in the future I'm pretty sure I could shave a couple of hours off  the time spent simply because I know what needs coming out now and what to expect.

 

So, to recap, to do the clutch on the Princess you have to drain the oil and the coolant first.  No really.  The engine has to come out whatever you do so you might as well do these jobs now because it's unavoidable.  Then you unfasten everything that joins the engine to the car with the exception of the driveshafts, those you can leave alone happily.  Princess is due a proper oil change anyway and even though the coolant was done less than a year ago, it too was looking ready for a refresh and now is as good a time as any to do it.  Here's the oil that came out, all 6 litres or so of it.

20180112-01 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Because Mike and I were still learning, we thought there was a chance we could get enough movement by removing one engine mount and bracket that was fouling the clutch housing, so we did that first.

20180112-02 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

It didn't help enough and we wasted time faffing about with engine angles before giving that up as a bad job.  Really frustratingly close though!

20180112-03 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180112-04 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Instead we admitted defeat and resigned ourselves to having to pull the engine.  That meant disconnecting the coolant hoses and draining the coolant, disconnecting the rest of the exhaust, unbolting the remote gear selector box, the vacuum line for the servo, removing the carburettor and air cleaner from the manifold  and disconnecting the speedo cable.  We also removed the radiator, normally you wouldn't have to but I have a Rover fan fitted on the opposite side to standard and the motor was catching on the oil fill pipe and distributor.  I've got a spare original fan I'm going to test and if it's good, I'll fit that in the stock location because it's tidier and should be perfectly effective enough, my last original one was until it got all out of shape and ate its own fan blades.

 

There's enough articulation in the driveshafts to safely and carefully lower the engine on the jack without disconnecting the driveshafts  so we did that.  We were concerned we'd have to remove the driveshafts too, which is even more work that seems excessive just for a clutch change.

20180112-05 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180112-06 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

With all that dropped down I can get to a lot of the greasy bits of the engine bay I couldn't before and get those cleaned up properly.  I can also get the bits of the engine degreased that I couldn't previously get to so that will also cut down on the amount of unpleasant road grime and oil sludge that's on the outside of the engine in places.  Discovered that one of the leaks looks to be the oil pressure sender so I'm going to remove and reseal that to hopefully get rid of the messiest leak the car has.  The distributor O ring is leaking again too, which is really annoying because it's a chore to replace and I can't find the new gear selector seals I bought so I'm going to have to order another set, at which point the set I bought will undoubtedly turn up.

 

Happily, dropping the engine out the bottom like this meant the clutch housing came off really easily and there's plenty of access to get at the clutch and fixings so it shouldn't be a nightmare to bolt back together again.

20180112-07 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

20180112-08 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr

 

Then my alarm beeped so it was time-up for today.  I'm hoping to get in on the weekend and give things a thorough clean and degrease and potentially get everything back together Monday/Tuesday since a lot of it is really a job for two people if you want to do it safely and in some cases it's just easier when there's two pairs of hands, particularly for things like the engine mounts which are a bit awkward to get at.  Until the next update, here's where we leave things.

 

20180112-09 by Angyl Roper, on Flickr