Bus Shite

[busmansholiday]

I had a dig in my archives about SYPTE 88. Turns out it was new in July 1975, seriously lost an argument with a tree in October 1975 and was off the road for over 6 months. It was fitted with the kneeling system and was on Tomorrow's World in June 1976 (being kept overnight at Chiswick) but the Traffic Commissioners wouldn't let them use the kneeling feature in service until September 1976.

 

As for LT and hydraulics, they converted a DMS to hydraulic brakes as it was trialed in Sheffield on the 95 route.

[Felly Magic]

Later on on TW, an SYPTE Dennis Detonator was on the screen with the short lived Maxwell gearbox. There are quite a few Titans in preservation, and I think they missed a golden opportunity with that, with the IFS, it could have easily been made as a low floor bus, Volvo still use a very similar set up in their low floor bus range today, so clearly Leyland did something right, the Titan went down like a lead brick though with operators, the inflexibility of it, being full height only, and integral put customers off, plus the unrest involving it, with orders being cancelled, and Leyland to do a rapid rethink, and bring out the less complex Olympian, which isn't a bad old tub really, Volvo refined the driving experience with better ergonomics, but somehow made the suspension softer, so they wallowed much more when hooning

[Inspector Morose]

A lot of the Leyland design engineers went to Volvo after the takeover hence when looking at Volvos IFS you'll see much the same as the Titan. A good percentage of the B7 low floor decker was Leyland design.

When the Volvoisation of the Olympian took place, they managed to kill the chassis member quality and protection - just about every Volvo Olympian I've been under hid some pretty scary chassis rot not seen in the older Leyland product. And don't talk to me about Volvos Z cam brakes!

The Titan was Leylands double deck National. They tried the same trick of replacing every model in their repertoire with one standard bus but without a large customer willing to take it on. Plus the industrial strife at Park Royal who's workforce hated the idea of buses being built by.semi-skilled labour really killed it for everyone who'd ordered trial batches. ECW was touted as an alternative builder after the Park Royal fiasco but this eventually came to nought. Being a full height bus limited the marked even more and there was little chance of large export orders as few countries ran double deck fleets. Good bus that it was, it was a bus too far. Too complex for the needs of most (shades of National again), inflexible specification and unable to meet what little demand there was. It took the chassis designers at Bristol to provide the solution in the B45 with its son of FLF Lodekka perimeter frame and much simplified layout and componentry. The bonus was that it was a chassis that could support full or low height bodies of the operators choosing. The Olympian won, not by being the better bus but by being what the customer wanted. Even then there was resistance by operators, many still choosing the ancient Atlantean for orders until it was no longer available in the UK.

The U.K. has always been hugely conservative in its bus technology compared to western Europe. In the 1960s many European bus drivers had air sprung integrals with powerful engines mounted out of the way of the driver and passengers, driving through fully automatic gearboxes and power steering while the UK was still subjecting theirs to low powered engines right by the side of the driver, crash gearboxes, no power steering and all suspended on huge heavy cart springs - all for the benefit of simplicity and economy of operation and screw the poor passenger. Just by that measure alone, it's no wonder that bus travel has had such a poor reputation and the but of many a joke for years.

[busmansholiday]

I remember being in Paris in about 1971 and seeing their trial with double decks ( I do have a picture in b&w somewhere). Front engined, horizontally mounted under the driver (virtually two Saviems on top of each other), auto box, etc etc. We had only stopped producing Routemaster, FLFs, PDs and Regents three years before.

[jon.k]

I know there's loads of footage like this about, but this one had a good selection of bus and car chod, I thought.

 

[Yoss]

Excellent. Good Scottish weather too.

[Felly Magic]

I used to regularly drive an F reg ex Lothian R type Oilican, and the bodywork leaked badly in the rain, one side of the upper deck saloon lights didn't work due to them being fried. If it was parked outside overnight, and it pished it down, the upper deck floor would be soaking. 

[busmansholiday]

Found this old picture I took in good old black & white.

 

No prizes (I'm a Yorkshireman), but who's the first to identify the middle coach, the outside ones are easy.

 

Just to piss you off I've blanked out the reg to stop you looking at bus lists on the web.

 

[rml2345]

It's an MCW "Metropolitan" bodied Bedford VAM but which one I can't say.

[cms206]

I used to regularly drive an F reg ex Lothian R type Oilican, and the bodywork leaked badly in the rain, one side of the upper deck saloon lights didn't work due to them being fried. If it was parked outside overnight, and it pished it down, the upper deck floor would be soaking.

Have you ever driven anything that wasn't either fucked or given a twattish nickname?

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[davidfowler2000]

I used to regularly drive an F reg ex Lothian R type Oilican, and the bodywork leaked badly in the rain

 

 

It's an Alexander. They do that. Most importantly with Alexander bodies that leak, they leak the water back out again unlike something like a Metropolitan which leaks in to ungalvanised steel box section and doesn't let the water back out.

[Inspector Morose]

MCW rot. Ugh. Yes let's design a body using "u" section channel steel painted pink with the lightest of coatings known to man then mount it so it resembles a body frame made up of guttering but don't allow any means of that nicely collected water to escape.

Been there, rebuilt that. Never again. Give me alloy framed Alexander's any day.

Whilst on the subject of Alexander's, was there someone at the factory who's job it was to put several rivet ends in the space between the roof skins on every bus built? I don't think I have never ridden or driven an Alexander that doesn't do that rattle rattle rattle as the bus corners, accelerates or brakes.

[busmansholiday]

It's an MCW "Metropolitan" bodied Bedford VAM but which one I can't say.

Bloody hell, that was quick. I thought i"d be struggling for correct answers.  It's actually HNK158G, photographed in the Castle Coach park in Southsea, round about 1971.

[Felly Magic]

Lothian are also well known throughout the industry not to maintain buses that are due for withdrawl, the state of the SPDs that turned up at Ensign was scary, they'd all broken their backs, and needed thousands spending on them. The SPD is a Dart too far IMHO. The Royales, well, rotten and mechanically shot to hell, Tom James was far from happy with his

 

I remember the ALX400s Arriva bought in 2000 on B7TL chassis, it was a lottery whether one would manage a round trip, and rampant aluminium corrosion appeared within a few months. Every one had to be sent back to Falkirk for extensive work. The R & S plate Royales First bought were actually popping body panels off as the adhesive failed, First fitters resorted to getting panel strapping & pop riveting them on to keep them together. Kwalitee

 

The industry as a whole is facing a very uncertain future, I have friends in all levels of the industry and they are all saying the same. What profits the PLCs are making are being creamed off for failing overseas operations, and pension deficits are sinking them, Rotala have just secured rather a lot of additional debt, and some of their operations are starting to attract the interests of the DVSA. I do think we aren't far off seeing one of the PLCs going begging to the government to bail them out, because there simply isn't a sustainable profit margin out there for most services. One by one, indies around here have either folded, or sold up, nobody wants the poison chalice that is the local arms length council op, as it is losing money and has lost the support of the council that still owns them, their petty fares war with the PLC has driven fares through the floor, there is no way in hell either operator is making any money on local services, for instance there is the 'quid zone' that is the fare for the inner town circle, which does carry quite a way out of the centre in any direction, before the 'war', this was £1.60-£1.80. Ridership has steeply declined on many routes, that double deckers have become sledgehammers to crack a nut, and single deckers are often even too big. I think everything is coming to the 'perfect storm' situation for the industry, and it is going to wipe out many more well known names

[Inspector Morose]

I like the guess in game. Okay, what's this then? (No googling)

 

[Felly Magic]

Blimey that has echos of Harrington, Yeates etc, with a Duple nose, a right old mongrel

[Noel Tidybeard]

is it a vauxhall?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Felly Magic]

It's a rare Leyland Gnu with Horsey Horseless Renault 20 ISIS body, and an Austin Maxi diesel engine, and once carried the reg D701`SWL. Did I leave out any AS legends there?

[Inspector Morose]

Okay, while you're pondering let me inflict this puzzle. Again, what is it?

(Clue - all three puzzles are linked)

 

[jon.k]

I thought the first one was easy and went to my Duple book for reference... but the side is all wrong. Ditto the Plaxton thing. Eagerly awaiting the answer.

[Felly Magic]

The D Coaches thing, it has an MCW badge on the front, hmmmmmm, it's a lightweight by the looks, I suspect Bedford VAM but could be wrong

[Inspector Morose]

They're both Bedfords, a VAL and a VAM. But the bodies? (You're almost there Felly)

[Felly Magic]

They are a bit before my time tbh, im mor of a Duple Rustbucket & Plaxton Woodworm 1970s era

[Inspector Morose]

Before RML gets it, they're all MCW coach bodies, hence the link with BMHs original post on the subject. Upper one was a Topaz as fitted to the VAL, the lower was another Metropolitan fitted to a VAM70 chassis. They were both re-fronted as windscreens for MCW coach bodies were impossible to source, even when they were fairly new. It was far easier to refront the coach when a screen went than try and find the impossible.

 

Rebuild the front using easier to source parts and you get a relatively modern coach for little money: it was this kind of lateral thinking that saw many an operator through and on to better things. Sadly gone are the days of these, sometimes weird and wonderful creations, only the imagination and supply of cheap bits seemed to stop many a bodybuilder from adapting a vehicle into something more suitable for their needs, rebuilding for further service when parts were scarce or modernising the look so the punter didn't realise you were running outdated machinery. Rebodying was another option taken by many but it's when the bodybuilder has been given carte Blanche to do as he sees fit that gets my interest. Operators large and small were up to it in the past and the creations could end up looking quite handsome or really hideous!

[83C]

Indeed there were some weird and wonderful creations, still goes on in some small ways today. My Tiger is an East Lancs rebody, and countless 80's & 90's coaches have been buggered about with new lower fronts, rear panels, etc. 

 

 

Swanbrook owned 3 former COMS Volvo B10M/Plaxton Paramount III's and all were given a serious body overhaul and restyling by Blackpool Coach Services in 2004/5. UJI 1761 was the first done, and was my usual motor on the 53/853 Gloucester-Cheltenham-Oxford service. Some people weren't keen on the looks but I thought the conversion suited them. 1761 is still around somewhere I think, 1762 has disappeared and 1763 had a very short post-refurbishment life, suffering an internal fire in the yard at Staverton in 2006.

 

BCS also did restyle kits for Duple 425s, and probably anything else if it was asked for! 

 

The last UK rebodies that I'm aware of were these:

 

Preserved: MUI808 by Daniel Graham, on Flickr

 

Strathtay had 6 Leyland Tigers rebodied in 2000 with East Lancs Myllennium Hyline bodies, which were sold on when Stagecoach took over the business.

 

Rebodying was also a work-around for council rules in some areas - minimum ages being specified for the body of a vehicle but not the chassis. 

[Inspector Morose]

Sometimes new front ends on coaches can end up looking a little less than attractive.

 

[Inspector Morose]

Here's a nice tale of a later rebuild that actually made it into preservation.

 

Starting out as CHE297C, this leopard was rebuilt by the Yorkshire Traction workshops from 1977-1979. All new mechanicals were fitted including adding power steering, current spec(at the time) braking systems and a fresh 0.680 engine. The body was then rebuilt as new with new framing and panels. The resultant bus was in effect a new one so gained a new registration, hence the V plate on what was a 1965 bus. It also received a new chassis number - YTC3 - the previous two numbers being carried by rebuilt leopard coaches rebodied by Plaxton of Scarborough.

One of the features of the rebuild was the fitting of rear air suspension, instead of the regular leaf springs. This, however didn't end well as it shed its rear axle in Doncaster, demolishing several bollards in the process and so was dragged back and re-converted back to leaf springs once again. During his time it's front panels were modernised using mouldings and bumper from the ECW Olympian body making it into, in my opinion anyway, a rather handsome beast. It lasted in this form until the late 80s when it was withdrawn (at around the same time as its non-rebuilt cousins) and sold to a scout troup and then onto preservation.

It has now gained its original registration again (probably to help get its free RFL) and roumors have it that it is or has been rebuilt to look like it did originally. I for one hope it hasn't as the re-re-built will have erased what was quite a facinating snippet of history when operators took time and effort to extend the lives of their vehicles in the best way they could.

[rml2345]

That is quite a handsome beast and would be unique preserved in it's rebuilt form. Hope they've kept it that way.

[320touring]

Fuck, even I could see the Leopard in that.

 

I need to stop hingin aboot with you guys

[Pillock]

This is one of my favourite threads.... I know close to nothing about buses, I've got a bit of an idea about old Nottingham stuff but only because I get giddy when I recognise a local machine in preservation.

 

The information you lot have tucked away is immense. There's a life story in every post just about and it's a fascinating read about warring operators, experiments, bodged repairs, lost axles (!) and stuff.